Firearms can no longer be fired from Engage position. Why?

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Vaylon
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Firearms can no longer be fired from Engage position. Why?

Post by Vaylon » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:24 pm

Previously, around two days ago, I was able to fire a firearm at an enemy from Engage position, but if I wanted to reload, I had to move back from Engage to Ranged. This made a lot of sense to me: you'd want room and time to reload your firearm, so you'd move back out in order to give yourself that time, but once you were reloaded, you could take a shot up close if you had to (though ideally you'd try to stay back in order to stay out of harm's way).

However, all firearms -- flintlocks, revolvers, carbines and muskets -- are now unable to be fired from Engage, so if you can't escape from Engage, you can't fire your firearm at all. I don't know why this change was made; it worked fine the way it was, in my opinion, and I believe all firearms were intended to be able to be fired from Engage. Take, for instance, the description from Tactics: Guerilla:
(OOC: While using this tactic, you have up to a 50% increased chance to avoid being pulled into melee combat, and 50% increased chances of breaking melee engagement to move back to ranged position. You will also automatically attempt to move from Engage to Ranged position when using firearms and casting attack spells, which can normally be used from Engage.) [Emphasis added.]
Now, I could potentially see why you'd say we can't fire a musket or carbine from Engage given that they're somewhat longer firearms, but honestly, if people can use pikes or similar long weapons from Engage -- or, more to the point, if casters are still able use attack magic from Engage -- then there's enough room in Engage for us to fire long arms. People wielding muskets in Engage already have a strike against them due to how heavy the weapon is, making them unable to tumble. Consider also the hassle of carrying power and shot and reloading in the middle of combat.

What, precisely, is the balance issue being corrected by making firearms incapable of firing at Engage? We're already forced to move back to Ranged in order to reload the firearm, which I am fine with and think is balanced enough. I don't see the problem with firing firearms at Engage. Could someone elaborate on why previous mechanics were insufficient?
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Noctere
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Re: Firearms can no longer be fired from Engage position. Wh

Post by Noctere » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:39 pm

I am currently working on firing mechanics in preparation for releasing something 'fun'. As I was doing so I inadvertently changed the way ALL firearms worked from engage. I have since fixed this error (about a day ago) and now all firearms that should fire from engage will. This means that carbines and muskets will now need to be fired and loaded from a ranged position while shorter firearms such as the flintlock do not.

All of this will be posted in the soon-to-come change log but I thought I would give you a heads up.
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Re: Firearms can no longer be fired from Engage position. Wh

Post by Dakhal » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:41 pm

+1 Noccy. That's something that I thought would be pretty cool for a while now, but thought that current mechanics were well enough as is.
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Re: Firearms can no longer be fired from Engage position. Wh

Post by Vaylon » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:30 pm

Noctere wrote:This means that carbines and muskets will now need to be fired and loaded from a ranged position while shorter firearms such as the flintlock do not.
What, specifically, was unbalanced with the ability to fire carbines and muskets at Engage?
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Re: Firearms can no longer be fired from Engage position. Wh

Post by Noctere » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:36 am

It was discussed as a staff and we decided to go forward with it. I will not discuss the specifics of our inner mechanics and balance plans (unless other GMs feel it should be shared) but I will say that all is not doom n gloom. Currently carbines and muskets are one of the, if not THEE, most powerful weapons in the game. In so much that if you have the right ammo and the right gun you can do more average damage for FAR less energy loss than even the most powerful spell. However, in the end it is not how much damage a weapon does or how much "pew pew" you can deliver, it is about your character and your roleplay.

I would love to see a character that specializes in using only improvised weapons just for the sake that it fits their RP. Or see a character who finds an obscure weapon which offers little mechanical benefit but only adds uniqueness to their personality. The 'ideal' state of things would be that there will never be a best weapon or spell or attack but rather each one should offer a different path of reaching the same goal.

Also as the balance guru, keep in mind that I do have spreadsheets full of data regarding balance issues, so I do keep track of things as best as I can. Even then I am still very open to suggestions, so please keep them coming.
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Re: Firearms can no longer be fired from Engage position. Wh

Post by Vaylon » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:12 am

Noctere wrote:It was discussed as a staff and we decided to go forward with it. I will not discuss the specifics of our inner mechanics and balance plans (unless other GMs feel it should be shared) but I will say that all is not doom n gloom. Currently carbines and muskets are one of the, if not THEE, most powerful weapons in the game. In so much that if you have the right ammo and the right gun you can do more average damage for FAR less energy loss than even the most powerful spell.
Yes, carbines and muskets do a lot of damage, but as I noted earlier, they come with significant drawbacks: you have to spend time reloading them, the fiddly ammo has to be lugged around (and once you're out of powder, you're finished), and the musket itself in particular is quite heavy, weighing in at ten pounds, making the wielder unable to tumble in melee. Instead of making carbines and muskets incapable of being fired from Engage, I would not be opposed to lengthier reload times for them or reducing the dodge chance while wielding/reloading them, thus making them riskier to use.
Noctere wrote:However, in the end it is not how much damage a weapon does or how much "pew pew" you can deliver, it is about your character and your roleplay.

I would love to see a character that specializes in using only improvised weapons just for the sake that it fits their RP. Or see a character who finds an obscure weapon which offers little mechanical benefit but only adds uniqueness to their personality. The 'ideal' state of things would be that there will never be a best weapon or spell or attack but rather each one should offer a different path of reaching the same goal.
I hope that everyone sees my character's use of a musket as roleplaying and that no one sees it as metagaming or implies that I'm merely choosing the "best" weapon in the game. Vaylon uses firearms (1) because he has access to them, (2) because they're showy, (3) because he's lazy and adverse to pain and usually has people to guard him and/or distract the enemy with melee, (4) because shooting stuff is just plain fun, and (5) because he just really likes having things that he's not supposed to have.
Noctere wrote:Also as the balance guru, keep in mind that I do have spreadsheets full of data regarding balance issues, so I do keep track of things as best as I can. Even then I am still very open to suggestions, so please keep them coming.
I've suggested altering the reload time or adding a dodge penality. I, too, welcome other suggestions.
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Re: Firearms can no longer be fired from Engage position. Wh

Post by Sneaky » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:38 am

I really don't mind this change. I'm a heavy user of muskets and the recent change makes sense to me. The musket has a longer barrel, usually like 5 feet long or something. So it stands to reason if you're in striking distance of someone's punch, sword thrust, or stab with a dagger, you're not going to have enough room to point the thing and fire. Anyway, just wanted to point out that not everybody is aposed to this change, and Vaylon, you said that you usually have someone guarding you because you don't like to be in the thick of it. You shouldn't have any issues with this new change as someone guarding you allows you to maintain ranged position for as long as your guardian is alive.
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Re: Firearms can no longer be fired from Engage position. Wh

Post by Bryce » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:22 am

I think it works for muskets. Carbines don't really have a place as things are now, maybe this could be it? A more powerful firearm than flintlocks that can be fired from engage for that leading shot when you're in a bind. They already have the longer reload time and heavier weight as their downside. If this were the case, I might actually use a carbine once in a while.
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Re: Firearms can no longer be fired from Engage position. Wh

Post by Arphaxad » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:51 am

As I was reading this thread I thought about this...

Perhaps the "long guns" could be used in melee (engage range) based on improvised weapon skill, bludgeoning attack. Do we already have this mechanic for bows? In fact may want to consider bayonets as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcvc3G5Fcj8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTvxk6tTSp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZsdVM-lAQ8

Just some food for thought...happy thinking!

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Re: Firearms can no longer be fired from Engage position. Wh

Post by Sneaky » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:15 am

Heh, you already can attack with them in engaged as a melee attack, though I don't believe it is very effective. Bayonets might be neat though.
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You also notice a bronze crossbow bolt (x8) and the corpse of a slender pale white cave drakolin.

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