Skill gain in offensive tactics

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Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Jirato » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:00 pm

It is no longer possible to gain skill from successful dodges, blocks, or parries, while using an offensive tactic. We feel this makes total sense, as offensie tactics isn't about actively trying to avoid getitng hit, it's about putting your all into landing a hit, at the sacrifice of defense. We made part of this change with tumble already, and we've had a system that prevents skillgain from artificially lowered skills in place for a couple years now, but for some reason this never really applied to the 75% pushdown that applied from being in an offensive tactic. Now it is.
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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Xyra » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:10 pm

I didn't think you could gain skill from parry. I tested it for a while and was never able to gain even a single increase regardless of how many times I parried.

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Jirato » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:12 pm

Xyra wrote:I didn't think you could gain skill from parry. I tested it for a while and was never able to gain even a single increase regardless of how many times I parried.


You are correct.
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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Hakon » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:13 pm

Is "none" an offensive tactic?

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Kiyaani » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:13 pm

Offense may not be about actively trying to avoid getting hit, but that doesn't mean you can't learn something if you happen to avoid getting hit. I get that this is to prevent what you feel may be abusive training techniques, but I personally don't think it 'makes total sense' to remove the gains completely and would rather people work towards a different play style if that's your objective than a forced skillgain loss. A success is a success and if it's still a challenge I think it should give at least a little gain - maybe only half or a third of the gain from a None or Defensive tactic.

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Xyra » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:13 pm

Jirato wrote:
Xyra wrote:I didn't think you could gain skill from parry. I tested it for a while and was never able to gain even a single increase regardless of how many times I parried.


You are correct.

Okay, just wanted to be sure since you said it isn't possible to gain it while in offensive, I wanted to make sure that it wasn't supposed to be gained in others.

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Nootau » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:23 pm

Kiyaani wrote:Offense may not be about actively trying to avoid getting hit, but that doesn't mean you can't learn something if you happen to avoid getting hit. I get that this is to prevent what you feel may be abusive training techniques, but I personally don't think it 'makes total sense' to remove the gains completely and would rather people work towards a different play style if that's your objective than a forced skillgain loss. A success is a success and if it's still a challenge I think it should give at least a little gain - maybe only half or a third of the gain from a None or Defensive tactic.



I agree, this does seem a touch unrealistic. I would say the gains should be lessened with the normal tactic offence training as mentioned above. With how damage and difficulty along with danger scaling is done I would say the chance to gain Skill Points should be lowered to between a 2% and a 5% chance. I was talking to someone else and these seemed fair ranged.. going down down the middle would a 3.5% Skill Point Gain chance be reasonable for not only Defensive gains while in tactic offensive but Offensive gains while in tactics defense?

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Avedri » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:28 pm

I'm confused as to why this implementation is taking place, taking it from 100 to 0 feels unnecessarily drastic.

We feel this makes total sense, as offensie tactics isn't about actively trying to avoid getitng hit, it's about putting your all into landing a hit, at the sacrifice of defense.


No, but this is a learn-based skill system. If you can avoid getting hit in offense, your character still learned something about how to get out of the way. RP wise this makes little sense.

we've had a system that prevents skillgain from artificially lowered skills in place for a couple years now, but for some reason this never really applied to the 75% pushdown that applied from being in an offensive tactic.


Can the gains be somewhat less, rather than flat out none, since you're not focused on protecting yourself but you can still learn from it?
Last edited by Avedri on Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Sneaky » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:29 pm

I think what's trying to be done here is to prevent the debuffing people do in order to squeeze as much skill gain out of a single area.
You grind dodge on infested bob while in tactics dodge until your skillgains start to decrease. Then you switch to tactics none since you can dodge without getting hit so much, and then once again your skillgains slow down in which case you now switch to tactics offense even though you're not actually attacking infested bob. You're only in a stance that allows you to put your best strike forward, except you never strike because you're working on dodging...
Might not be the way everybody does it, but it is the logical way to proceed with skill grinding.
Except now it isn't, so instead of grinding 1000 plus dodge in an area you can survive with both hands tied behind your back and severe wounds to both your legs, you have to grind that 1100 plus dodge in an area where there's actual danger. It's almost like there's suppose to be risk involved for those high skills.
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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Laroremas » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:37 pm

Sneaky wrote:stuff


Everyone reading this thread understands why this was done and how it was done (probably); what is being discussed now are potential alternatives to the change itself, that's all. We know dangerous places are supposed to be dangerous!

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Solaje » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:36 pm

Will we receive more skillgains in tactics dodge than when we aren't using any tactics?

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Vertebrate » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:56 pm

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Kunren » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:40 pm

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Dorn » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:23 pm

Personally feel like it is a good change in the long run for balance reasons. Taken advantage of it as much as most, I imagine and going to take some shifting to get used.

Any sort of gains left in however, regardless of how small will just see no change in the way people are doing things. It will just be slower, but the end result is the same.
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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Lavi » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:25 pm

It'd be nice to get larger gains for dodge and things. it's so difficult to gain dodge as it is at the moment that'd going to a lower area and using tactics offense sometimes seems the only to do it. suggestions maybe? This seems pretty unpopular.
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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Dorn » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:31 am

I won't be surprised if people spar or tutor more to get around this. Or tutor and then spar with that person.

It would be nice seeing the gain for dodges not just based on the roll but also on attack type.

For example gains as they are vs stuff like raking claws and daggers but more against medium weapons and even further for a weapon that could knock you out in one.
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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Lavi » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:37 am

Dorn wrote:It would be nice seeing the gain for dodges not just based on the roll but also on attack type.

For example gains as they are vs stuff like raking claws and daggers but more against medium weapons and even further for a weapon that could knock you out in one.


I'd like that too. Might help with the gain problem. A lot of people used the offensive tactic back in the day. we're actually making it more difficult for new players to catch up. I'm not sure what that means about balance in terms of CVC, though with generalization it's not so bad. Just a thought.
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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Dorn » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:40 am

It would also be nice to see some mobs in general that give greater gains than normal. For those super tough mobs, whether it is because they're in heavy armor and knocking people over or summoning other mobs... or whatever combination of horrible stuff, have them give greater gains for people than normal.

People might start hunting them instead of the easiest creature for their skill range then, and it might encourage people to group to hunt them.
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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Kunren » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:35 am

Dorn wrote:It would also be nice to see some mobs in general that give greater gains than normal. For those super tough mobs, whether it is because they're in heavy armor and knocking people over or summoning other mobs... or whatever combination of horrible stuff, have them give greater gains for people than normal.

People might start hunting them instead of the easiest creature for their skill range then, and it might encourage people to group to hunt them.

+1. Having certain tough mobs create an "aura" of increased skillgain for their room would be amazing. Perhaps most if not all task mobs could come with this as well?

As for dodge training... With access to a monk and a brofist, along with someone on the side to tutor you (or the brofist himself if you are good enough at brawling to let him get his combos most of the time even while tutoring) dodge flies up. Once alchemy hits, and with it almost certainly other methods of healing beyond poultices and monks, a monk will be less necessary here. If we start getting differing gains for damage types, may wish to replace the brofist with whoever can efficiently give you the most dodge gains. This is just a quick different path for grinding dodge without resorting to tactics offense, though with the set up it requires I wish there were more.
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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Dorn » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:38 am

Kunren wrote:
Dorn wrote:As for dodge training... With access to a monk and a brofist, along with someone on the side to tutor you (or the brofist himself if you are good enough at brawling to let him get his combos most of the time even while tutoring) dodge flies up. Once alchemy hits, and with it almost certainly other methods of healing beyond poultices and monks, a monk will be less necessary here. If we start getting differing gains for damage types, may wish to replace the brofist with whoever can efficiently give you the most dodge gains. This is just a quick different path for grinding dodge without resorting to tactics offense, though with the set up it requires I wish there were more.


Totally not a fan of that. Though entirely possible and very easy just need a pal or two. Heck, do it near the infirmary. Not that I'd blame you for it.
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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Acarin » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:30 am

I don't necessarily agree with this change but I assume it's done so no discussion there.

What I've always had an issue with is the roll changes provided by each tactic:

tactic none - baseline normal rolls
tactic parry - half offense, double parry, no dodge
tactic dodge - half offense, double dodge, no parry
tactic offense - 125% offense, 25% parry, 25% dodge

so for a 25% increase in attack, I lose 75% dodge and parry? This never really made sense to me. Since we're balancing skill gains in tactic offense right now, how about taking a look at this. I realize a 25% increase in attack is fairly huge and going to double would be imbalancing but at the same time.... how about something like 150% offense, 50% defense... so sacrifice half your defense for a 50% increase in attack.

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Dorn » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:50 am

Acarin wrote:I don't necessarily agree with this change but I assume it's done so no discussion there.

What I've always had an issue with is the roll changes provided by each tactic:

tactic none - baseline normal rolls
tactic parry - half offense, double parry, no dodge
tactic dodge - half offense, double dodge, no parry
tactic offense - 125% offense, 25% parry, 25% dodge

so for a 25% increase in attack, I lose 75% dodge and parry? This never really made sense to me. Since we're balancing skill gains in tactic offense right now, how about taking a look at this. I realize a 25% increase in attack is fairly huge and going to double would be imbalancing but at the same time.... how about something like 150% offense, 50% defense... so sacrifice half your defense for a 50% increase in attack.


Honestly, I think it would be pretty interesting to see a variable type stance, that you can adjust between offensive/none. At that point though, offensive stance may become just *that* stance you might jump into on occasion for a certain ability or if you're vastly more powerful to your opponent.
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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Acarin » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:57 am

I'm trying to say that tactic offense causes a minor increase in attack and a huge drop in defense. It's not a great tactic unless you need to go into it for an ability. I'd like to see it brought up to be more like other tactic. Instead of getting rid of skill gains, providing a decrease in defense to 50% instead of 25% would prevent people from grinding on weak critters for as long and make more sense overall.

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Re: Skill gain in offensive tactics

Postby Dorn » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:02 am

Acarin wrote:I'm trying to say that tactic offense causes a minor increase in attack and a huge drop in defense. It's not a great tactic unless you need to go into it for an ability. I'd like to see it brought up to be more like other tactic. Instead of getting rid of skill gains, providing a decrease in defense to 50% instead of 25% would prevent people from grinding on weak critters for as long and make more sense overall.


I understood that.
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