info/links about tactics & other combat options

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info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Smitty » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:47 pm

Hi Everyone

Vaylon refers to "the description from Tactics: Guerilla" in his post here:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5247

This is his quote:

(OOC: While using this tactic, you have up to a 50% increased chance to avoid being pulled into melee combat, and 50% increased chances of breaking melee engagement to move back to ranged position. You will also automatically attempt to move from Engage to Ranged position when using firearms and casting attack spells, which can normally be used from Engage.) [Emphasis added.]


What a fine resource that quote comes from. Lots of detail and even I understand it! Amazing. Hopefully there is more wherever that came from.

Please provide a link to that reference.

If that language is in the wiki, it's hiding from me. However, I can easily miss the obvious, and the wiki search box doesn't work for me (Firefox issue?). Google advanced search doesn't find the quotation in the wiki (advanced search found 4 current wiki site instances of "pulled into melee combat", but none were Vaylon's).

Actually, I'm hoping to find a complete yet easy-to-understand resource with specific info about the impact of tactic, and of other combat choices, upon skill effectiveness, skill gain, and combat capabilities. The "Skill gain in offensive tactics" thread was a help (thanks Acarin for your listing about roll changes and to others who provided specific info), but it also generated questions.

(The summary info that I've found in the wiki is perfect for many new players, but I'm hoping for enough detail that I won't be tempted to ask too many questions.)

Thanks
Smitty

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Re: info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Acarin » Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:43 am

The tactic info can be found when you check the description of the ability in game. The benefits of some abilities are currently far better described than others. In some cases, this is likely intentional. If you have specific questions though, feel free to ask. There is no specific resource that anyone has put together, unfortunately.

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Re: info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Smitty » Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:04 pm

In the game help?! *blush* Thanks Acarin for response and for your restraint (not hammering me).

I'll limit myself to a few questions. It's one thing to ask a few questions and another to fully demonstrate the extent of ignorance. For me, the grade here is steep.

> 1. For a newbie, in what circumstances is the plus percentage of TACTIC OFFENSE big enough to be worth the negatives?

The combination of recent weapon training and TACTIC OFFENSE would increase weapon effectiveness. Hopefully the combination effect would be greater than the two effects individually. However, a newbie with negligible defense will get clobbered. So maybe TACTIC OFFENSE is good when recently trained and fighting in a group that includes an experienced character with guard skill.

> 2. For a newbie, is it wise to forgo offers of offensive training in favor of dodge?

I don't see a specific response to Solaje's question about dodge skill gain and tactic dodge at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5293. Is that because the answer is complicated? Is the answer impacted by the interaction of several factors?

Weapon skill determines parry skill, so increasing offensive skill does increase defense somewhat. Higher offensive skill also reduces the length of a fight. I have no idea how to determine the relative benefit of the weapon + parry increases (from TACTIC OFFENSE) vs the benefit of dodge increase (from TACTIC DODGE).

Thanks to Sneaky for the informative post about grinding dodge. Even if it is partially obsolete, it is a lesson on how one might approach combat here. It appears that some experienced forum participants concentrate first on dodge when they start a new character, in the past anyway. In my limited game experience, offers to train tend to be offense related. (maybe because offense tends to make a typical newbie happy?)

> 3. Is it correct that TACTIC GUERILLA gives no decrease to defensive skill gain?

Although the description says "no advantage" to offensive effectiveness, it does result in more rapid instances of "fire" offense. So, just want to be sure there is no reduction to defensive skill gain.

When TACTIC GUERILLA "allows you to stay in ranged combat" it means that there will be fewer instances of dodge. So, even if skill gain per dodge instance is unmodified, overall dodge skill gain per fight will be reduced... I think... but if fewer dodge instances means a character can finish more fights before retiring from injury or fatigue, then if... again there's probably several factors to be considered to determine the total impact of TACTIC GUERILLA upon dodge over the course of a combat session.

> 4. When would TACTIC PARRY be useful for a newish character with low weapon skill?

Newbie parry effectiveness (proportionate to weapon skill) would be low even if doubled by TACTIC PARRY. There is no skill gain for parry, dodge, or block. What is the upside?

Having simple summary information when the wiki serves as the game's primary web page is wise, so to not overload or confuse potential players and new newbies. After a few hours of combat though, I bet that many players are hungry for more info.

A player web page with detailed combat info and advice would probably be popular. You could become famous world-wide as well as popular with many of the new ladies (and men) for simply stating what you already know!

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Re: info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Acarin » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:42 pm

Smitty wrote:> 1. For a newbie, in what circumstances is the plus percentage of TACTIC OFFENSE big enough to be worth the negatives?

The combination of recent weapon training and TACTIC OFFENSE would increase weapon effectiveness. Hopefully the combination effect would be greater than the two effects individually. However, a newbie with negligible defense will get clobbered. So maybe TACTIC OFFENSE is good when recently trained and fighting in a group that includes an experienced character with guard skill.


Tactic offense is available to all players and can be changed out for other tactics with a short roundtime. Skill in a weapon (i.e. weapon training) and the tactic are two entirely different things. Tactic offense causes a slight increase in your weapon roll at the cost of most of your defense (again, it is a percentage increase in your roll calculated off of your weapon/melee roll). Tactic offense is mainly useful right now when you can afford to sacrifice the defense, are trying to finish something quickly, are using a weapon that can one shot and hit faster than the enemy, and for use of a certain brofist ability. You are also forced into this tactic when using berserker abilities (battlefury, maybe?). I'm sure people have found other uses as well. Guarding will not help as any melee attack will drop the guard. This question is not really clear to me so let me know if I'm not interpreting it correctly.

Smitty wrote:> 2. For a newbie, is it wise to forgo offers of offensive training in favor of dodge?

I don't see a specific response to Solaje's question about dodge skill gain and tactic dodge at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5293. Is that because the answer is complicated? Is the answer impacted by the interaction of several factors?

Weapon skill determines parry skill, so increasing offensive skill does increase defense somewhat. Higher offensive skill also reduces the length of a fight. I have no idea how to determine the relative benefit of the weapon + parry increases (from TACTIC OFFENSE) vs the benefit of dodge increase (from TACTIC DODGE).

Thanks to Sneaky for the informative post about grinding dodge. Even if it is partially obsolete, it is a lesson on how one might approach combat here. It appears that some experienced forum participants concentrate first on dodge when they start a new character, in the past anyway. In my limited game experience, offers to train tend to be offense related. (maybe because offense tends to make a typical newbie happy?)

I recommend keeping your dodge/defensive skill in line with your attack skills or you'll run into difficulty down the road.

The answer to Solaje's question is that you will receive less dodge in tactic dodge if fighting the same critter. Skill gain depends on how challenging the enemy is and you stop gaining dodge when the enemy's attack is about half of your dodge roll.

Choose your tactic based on the enemy. If they have high attack, go defensive so you don't die quickly. I recommend staying mostly in tactic none or one of the defensive tactics. Tactic offense is rarely useful.

If you want dodge training, just ask on esp. Most can provide this.

Smitty wrote:> 3. Is it correct that TACTIC GUERILLA gives no decrease to defensive skill gain?

Although the description says "no advantage" to offensive effectiveness, it does result in more rapid instances of "fire" offense. So, just want to be sure there is no reduction to defensive skill gain.

When TACTIC GUERILLA "allows you to stay in ranged combat" it means that there will be fewer instances of dodge. So, even if skill gain per dodge instance is unmodified, overall dodge skill gain per fight will be reduced... I think... but if fewer dodge instances means a character can finish more fights before retiring from injury or fatigue, then if... again there's probably several factors to be considered to determine the total impact of TACTIC GUERILLA upon dodge over the course of a combat session.


You don't need to stay in tactic guerilla all the time. When you're training dodge, just use one of the other tactics. I think this is how it works at least. You can always use position engage to get in melee range too. I don't know much about this tactic, so someone can correct me if any of this is wrong.

Smitty wrote:> 4. When would TACTIC PARRY be useful for a newish character with low weapon skill?

Newbie parry effectiveness (proportionate to weapon skill) would be low even if doubled by TACTIC PARRY. There is no skill gain for parry, dodge, or block. What is the upside?

Having simple summary information when the wiki serves as the game's primary web page is wise, so to not overload or confuse potential players and new newbies. After a few hours of combat though, I bet that many players are hungry for more info.

A player web page with detailed combat info and advice would probably be popular. You could become famous world-wide as well as popular with many of the new ladies (and men) for simply stating what you already know!


Tactic parry would be useful if you're dual wielding (2 parry rolls), if your weapon skill is higher than your dodge and you're using a weapon that parries well (a staff would be an example), and the enemy does not use ranged attacks or things like trample/charge. For a new player with equivalent skill, tactic dodge and tactic parry are probably about the same only tactic parry will not get you dodge skill gain.

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Re: info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Smitty » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:36 pm

Hi Acarin

Thanks so much for your help!

Even though my question about TACTIC OFFENSE was poorly worded, I think you nailed it... TACTIC OFFENSE is not commonly useful for a newbie, but I can switch to TACTIC OFFENSE when an opponent can be one shot.

If a stonger character is guarding my character, the need for defense may be reduced, so...

When
- I'm using a ranged weapon, and
- grouped with an experienced player, and
- that experienced player wants to guard me, and
- our opponent doesn't have an extremely powerful attack,
I'll ask the experienced player about TACTIC OFFENSE, and use whatever tactic that he/she prefers that I use (offense or none - I should be able to make my own decision by the time I have guerilla).

OK, generally, my default will be TACTIC NONE, for a while.

Eventually, I may use TACTIC GUERILLA as much as TACTIC NONE.
(requires marksmanship 100)

The choice between TACTIC NONE and TACTIC GUERILLA will depend on several considerations. I understand that using TACTIC GUERILLA over time, instead of TACTIC NONE, will slow the development of dodge skill.

TACTIC GUERILLA! For those with a ranged weapon, it just seems too good to pass up. TACTIC GUERILLA means you will be pulled into melee less often, which has...
- Offensive advantage (more fire instances)
- Defensive advantage (not hit as much)
Apparently there is no significant disadvantage as long as you monitor development of dodge skill and make adjustments to be sure that dodge development does not slow down too much.

Apparently everyone with a bow or a sling primary weapon should use a General Ability slot for TACTIC GUERILLA, and use this tactic actively as an important part of their combat.

I really appreciate your recommendations about
- keeping defense and offense in line with each other, and about
- not wasting time fighting critters with rolls that are half of mine or less.

OK, I understand that, since it will be unlikely that my melee weapon skill will be higher than my dodge (my primary weapon will be ranged), it will be rare that circumstances make TACTIC PARRY a wise choice.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts. You've been a big help.

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Re: info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Fayne » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:57 pm

I would like to add two things here:

First, tactics offense does very little for ranged attacks. The already small boost you get to melee rolls os reduced even further for ranged attacks, meaning you get about half the percentage boost to your offensive roll, while still getting your defensive rolls reduced by half. If you're gonna fight with ranged weapons, the only time you should use tactics offense is when you are going up against something with higher defensive rolls than your offensive rolls, and you have someone with high defensive capabilities guarding you. I suppose you could use it while stealthed to take out a tough opponent quickly, but this would be risky unless you have a decent stealth skill.

Second, tactics guerilla is a sort of double-edged blade. On one hand, it decreases your chances of getting pulled into engaged position. On the other hand, it reduces your chances to gain dodge skill by reducing the amount of times you are put in a position to dodge an attack. The reason this is such a serious problem is because the chances of getting pulled into engaged position is not a solid number. Like practically all combat-related mechanics, it is based off of skill. Your chance to remain in ranged position is determined by your dodge skill versus their offense skill, likely melee. I can't say exactly how the mechanic works, but I suspect that each time something attempts to attack you while you are in ranged position, the RNG generates three numbers, one for their attack roll, one for your dodge roll, and one for your chance to avoid being pulled into engaged position. Like I said, this is pure speculation, but I do know that your dodge skill being higher increases your chances to avoid being pulled out of ranged, and your chances of pulling back out into ranged position after being pulled into engaged.

In short, tactics guerilla is good, but you won't want to rely on it, or else you'll eventually find yourself getting pulled out of ranged fairly often against enemies you have a hard time dodging, and you'll find it hard to get out of wngaged once there. The best use for tactics guerilla is when you are trying to grind marksmanship and whatever weapon skill associated with your ranged attacks.

Also, a nice little tidbit: tactics guerilla is useful for magic users as well, not just ranged weapon users. Using tactics guerilla will make your character try to enter ranged position every round of combat if they are using magic rather than just sitting in engaged. This can come in handy while grinding those pesky magic skills, since you'll use less energy dodging, not to mention healing costs will be reduced.
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Re: info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Acarin » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:17 pm

An additional correction: Unless this has been changed recently, tactic offense drops your defense to 25%, not half, and only increases your offense by 25%.

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Re: info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Kunren » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:54 pm

Fayne wrote:I would like to add two things here:

First, tactics offense does very little for ranged attacks. The already small boost you get to melee rolls os reduced even further for ranged attacks, meaning you get about half the percentage boost to your offensive roll, while still getting your defensive rolls reduced by half. If you're gonna fight with ranged weapons, the only time you should use tactics offense is when you are going up against something with higher defensive rolls than your offensive rolls, and you have someone with high defensive capabilities guarding you. I suppose you could use it while stealthed to take out a tough opponent quickly, but this would be risky unless you have a decent stealth skill.

Second, tactics guerilla is a sort of double-edged blade. On one hand, it decreases your chances of getting pulled into engaged position. On the other hand, it reduces your chances to gain dodge skill by reducing the amount of times you are put in a position to dodge an attack. The reason this is such a serious problem is because the chances of getting pulled into engaged position is not a solid number. Like practically all combat-related mechanics, it is based off of skill. Your chance to remain in ranged position is determined by your dodge skill versus their offense skill, likely melee. I can't say exactly how the mechanic works, but I suspect that each time something attempts to attack you while you are in ranged position, the RNG generates three numbers, one for their attack roll, one for your dodge roll, and one for your chance to avoid being pulled into engaged position. Like I said, this is pure speculation, but I do know that your dodge skill being higher increases your chances to avoid being pulled out of ranged, and your chances of pulling back out into ranged position after being pulled into engaged.

In short, tactics guerilla is good, but you won't want to rely on it, or else you'll eventually find yourself getting pulled out of ranged fairly often against enemies you have a hard time dodging, and you'll find it hard to get out of wngaged once there. The best use for tactics guerilla is when you are trying to grind marksmanship and whatever weapon skill associated with your ranged attacks.

Also, a nice little tidbit: tactics guerilla is useful for magic users as well, not just ranged weapon users. Using tactics guerilla will make your character try to enter ranged position every round of combat if they are using magic rather than just sitting in engaged. This can come in handy while grinding those pesky magic skills, since you'll use less energy dodging, not to mention healing costs will be reduced.

I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that marksmanship, not dodge, affected how hard it is for you to be pulled out of ranged.
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Re: info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Acarin » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:44 pm

Kunren is correct.

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Re: info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Solaje » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:14 pm

What Acarin says about dodge gains is correct, but that was not what my question was about.

This is kind of unrelated to your questions Smitty, sorry.

I was asking about the recent change to tactics dodge- we no longer receive skill gains for dodge while in tactics offensive. The reason given was that it makes no sense to get dodge gains while focusing solely on offense. By that same logic, I thought we should receive more skill gains while focusing solely on dodging attacks. I also thought (but didn't say) that logic also dictates we should not gain melee skills while in tactics dodge. I came to realize that the change was more about changing the way people train dodge than logic.

This is neither here nor there at this point. The game wasn't about mechanics for me.

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Re: info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Acarin » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:48 am

Solaje, I agree with you to some extent.

I think that the easiest solution to make everything consistent (and not seemingly patched as it is now) is to make tactic offense comparable to other tactics. So doubling my offense (or since this would be HUGE and somewhat imbalancing, adding 50% to offense), and only halving my defensive rolls (instead of the current 25%), then allowing skill gain for dodge/block. Currently we can train weapons in tactic dodge and parry and still be faced with a reasonable challenge since our offensive rolls are only halved (still no training in newbie areas but gives reasonable options for skill gain). I'd like to see the same thing available with dodge. It's a little strange to me that I have to train at my full dodge roll now, considering that an enemy that could give me an appropriate challenge at this point would kill me very quickly. Even if I'm in an offensive tactic, that doesn't mean that I have sacrificed all my defense, decided not to avoid attacks, and cannot learn from avoiding them.

I think that this change to tactic offense is something that is very forced and I don't think it fits well with the other mechanics in the game. Other opinions??

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Re: info/links about tactics & other combat options

Postby Fayne » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:51 pm

All I'll say is dodge was already a pretty big pain in the ass to train. At this point, I'll be relying on training either stealth or shield use depending on my style of play with a given character. Dodge just isn't worth the trouble.

Also, I know people say not to focus/rely on stealth because it isn't foolproof, but neither is dodge. They both depend on the RNG, so really you're just as well off relying on one as you are the other.
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