New pounce ability

Druidic warriors seeking perfection through physical prowess.
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Kent
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New pounce ability

Post by Kent » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:12 pm

I don't play a Dwaedn, but my comment on this new cougar pounce from hiding ability is that it brings in an unexpected role-play shift to the game for this class. I could expect that some attack from hiding​ ability might be added in to the repetoir of the assassin's or thieve's guild or the like. Pouncing from hiding is not generally associated with bravery on combat, especially for barbarian-types.

Not trying to be rude, but I believe CLOK and the Dwaedn class were not at all improved by this change.
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Noctere
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Re: New pounce ability

Post by Noctere » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:29 pm

Normally I would not feel the need to respond to a post such as this but there may be others who may have this same misconception.

For starters, this and one other yet to be released ability are both 100% supported by the established game lore, reviewed and discussed with the previous developer(the lore hermit) and reviewed and discussed with the current developer(The Great Jirato himself). The problem is not what is in game, or on the wiki but some of our more pronounced game characters who have played Dwaedn in the past.

Dwaedn in a nutshell are animalistic warriors who honor strength above all else. They observe the animals around them in the hopes of learning how they survive in the harsh wilderness and they use a type of magic to honor the spirit of the beasts they have slain as they admire the challenge of the fight. They do not wear heavy armor as it is considered cowardly and they do not use light weapons for the same reason. This, however, DOES NOT mean that they are all dim-witted honor crazed barbarians. That was a trope established by other players NOT by the GMs or the lore.

Have you ever wondered why Bjorn keeps a totem of a snake outside his longhouse? Or a totem of the cougar? In talks with the one who placed those totems, there were even plans to place other animals types but it was never fully developed. The reason behind this is that the Dwaedn Wyr finds strength in many animals, not just the bear. Even though the bear is their most revered for its physical strength. All animals have something to teach them, even the smaller ones.

That brings us back to the new ability, pounce. This ability is not encouraging Dwaedn to hide or to fully use stealth. Does the lion hide from the buffalo? Does the puma lie low in the grass to escape the sheep? NO! They stalk their prey to allow them to get closer so that they may open up their attack and quickly conquer what they set their sights on. The ability pounce is no different. It is a melee only, opening attack ability... like the above animals.
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Rias
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Re: New pounce ability

Post by Rias » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:12 am

Kent wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:12 pm
Not trying to be rude, but I believe CLOK and the Dwaedn class were not at all improved by this change.
It can be rough when your idea of something is shaken up, for sure. Hopefully I can help assuage some of your concerns. As the creator of the Dwaedn Wyr, I'm actually excited for this addition! I think it will go a long way toward reminding people that the Dwaedn Wyr are multi-faceted, and more than a bunch of bear cultists with a single simplistic combat philosophy consisting of being loud and smashing things until they stop moving. The Dwaedn Wyr are indeed often loud and brash, and they value physical strength very much, but they are not forbidden from utilizing effective combat tactics that aren't purely related to strength alone. They draw inspiration from all sorts of beasts, after all, even if the physically strong ones tend to enjoy the greatest respect.

As Noccy pointed out, a Cougar totem has been in Dwaedn Vil since the Old Days. So have the Wolf and Serpent totems, which are two more that should be taken as evidence against the common misconception that Dwaedn can only do their thing by loudly and brashly rushing up to confront their foes after properly ensuring their foes know they're coming. Cougar, Wolf, and Serpent being among the top spirits in Dwaedn reverence would seem to suggest that the Way of the Bear isn't the -only- way to do things, and I think it could be argued that all three of these spirits could be seen to use the overall technique of leading a fight from a position of strength, often striking when their prey is not initially aware of them. While cougars and other large cats can indeed be terrifyingly strong, wolves and serpents are perhaps not quite so much: they bring other things to the table when it comes to prowess in physical conflict.

While the "me Grontarg, me smash puny foes" stereotype can certainly work for a Dwaedn Wyr character, it has never been my favorite. Dwaedn Wyr are - generally speaking, as an organization - introspective challenge-seekers wishing to continually improve themselves, with a spiritual connection to and drawing inspiration from the wild natural world around them: particularly revering beasts at the top of the food chain for obvious reasons, but ultimately seeking wisdom from all, both great and small. See this line from the Dwaedn Wyr wiki article:
A Dwaedn warrior is almost certainly prideful, and this is not discouraged. However, should this pride cause a warrior to regard himself as superior to and above the beasts he fights, he will soon be humbled, for always will even the meekest of beasts have something to teach the mightiest man, if the man has the wisdom and humility to see it.
All this to say: Dwaedn Wyr are not limited to raw strength alone, even if strength is clearly a primary focus of their members.

Now to get more specific to the new ability in question: As I understand it, it's meant as an initial strike, and if I understand correctly it also has penalties that prevent it from being used in a hit-and-run method that stealth-reliant characters would use. This isn't a matter of constantly retreating back to the shadows to make stealthy attacks against a foe who can't fight back, which would certainly earn a Dwaedn Wyr scorn and ridicule: What's the point of trying to deny one's enemy the opportunity to fight back? This deprives the Dwaedn warrior of opportunities to test and improve himself, and is certainly not a situation that could be considered a worthy and honorable challenge. No: A Dwaedn uses this Pounce ability to lead off an attack as an initial strike, bringing the Dwaedn face-to-face with a foe from an advantageous position of strength, and the encounter proceeds entirely face-to-face. This is a powerful first strike ability, not a means of turning Dwaedn into sneaky stealth assassins who only ever strike from the shadows. (Does it even require a successful stealth roll to be used? That, I don't know.)

I'd love to hear any further thoughts on all this, as I'm interested to hear what impressions and understanding people have of the Dwaedn Wyr in general. They're one of my favorite guilds.

Fun semi-related trivia: I've always wanted to add a Rat Totem and some rat-based Dwaedn abilities! Their resourcefulness, cunning, and tenacity are certainly a worthy source of inspiration for a Dwaedn warrior.
The lore compels me!

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Re: New pounce ability

Post by vidor » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:22 am

Oo, pick me!

I love the new ability.

Let's talk about Rakar. The loveable leathercrafter, master of Lightsmasher and Mightyglaive. King Malachite Dingus.

He's... not an idiot. But he understands that if people think he is, they will say, do, and let slip things around him. They will underestimate, expect him to go direct.

He loves to watch rabits, badgers, peccary. Even though he may come across like the me smash, because let's face it, that's what he says, he learns a lot from the snakes who appear bigger than they are to prevent battle.

He believe sin prowess, in using his abilities to defend others. He has never been afraid to fight for what he thinks is right.

And sometimes that will be a pounce from hiding.

Thank you, GMs, for creating some new abilities, both this one and the one that's coming. It makes me very very excited to continue raising Rakar's stealth.

Some players like their am smash goods. That's totally fine. But no guild has ever been one-size-fits-all.

Is good, yuh.

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Rias
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Re: New pounce ability

Post by Rias » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:43 am

vidor wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:22 am
Some players like their am smash goods. That's totally fine. But no guild has ever been one-size-fits-all.
Right! It certainly works, I just wanted to clarify that not all Dwaedn Wyr are that way.

Now I'm super tempted to log in as my Dwaedn I never got around to playing, just to try out this new ability.
The lore compels me!

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Kent
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Re: New pounce ability

Post by Kent » Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:05 pm

Noctere wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:29 pm

"For starters, this and one other yet to be released ability are both 100% supported by the established game lore, reviewed and discussed with the previous developer(the lore hermit) and reviewed and discussed with the current developer(The Great Jirato himself). The problem is not what is in game, or on the wiki but some of our more pronounced game characters who have played Dwaedn in the past. Etc. Etc"
Alright, I have to say, thank you, Noctere and Rias for the response and clarification, especially the above-mentioned paragraph. Not having played a Dwaedn, I never researched into the lore; it was, as mentioned, due to what Player Characters did or said that coloured my thinking.
- Kent "Gunney" Gunderman


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Kent
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Re: New pounce ability

Post by Kent » Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:34 pm

I didn't start out this thread looking for a pun opportunity. However, it has to be said that most of the Dwaedn players I encountered in the past would have said to me: "Pounce on a foe from hiding like a cougar?! That style of fighting is for.... pussies!"
- Kent "Gunney" Gunderman


A dirty woodsman frowns at you and suggests you return after getting cleaned up.

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