Dwaedn as glass cannons

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Jirato
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Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Jirato » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:39 pm

We've always meant Dwaedn Wyr as the "Glass Cannon" group of the game, along with Elemancers. They SHOULD be a terror in combat, and anyone going up against them should feel that "Oh crap, I'm going to die." feeling, one on one.

But it's been bothering us a bit lately at just how durable a well-trained Dwaedn can be. There was a recent event planned last week involving some bandits and some such, and a sizable amount of effort went into it, with plans/intentions for interactions and such, and instead, they just got *DESTROYED* by a Dwaedn who was able to walk away with just a minor scratch and didn't even break a sweat when outnumbered several to one.

We have set skill ranges in minds when we make NPCs. There's certain threshholds we just don't pass even for event critters. There's Irwin/Shar/Bjorn level skill, and then there's "Significantly high challenge but not crazy overboard." skill for stuff like the bandit leader. It irks me, however, that even the significantly high challenge critter and several of his cronies can still get completely destroyed. We COULD add them to the godly Irwin/Shar/Bjorn level of skill, but I think that's a pretty artificial solution and just slapping a band-aid on it.

We've had some discussion internally and have tossed around some ideas. One of is looking at re-working some of the animal spirit blessing buffs, as a 30% melee bonus means a TON to someone who already has over 1500 melee skill. Also, while the toughness and padding of boar's blessing pretty much turns a Dwaedn into a tank, they still retain all their dodging which we're not so sure about. Though it's hard to justify ICly, as boars are pretty slippery critters IRL.

I'm not really sure where to go with this at this point. I feel something needs to be done, but I'm not sure what. So as players, what do YOU think about it?
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Xyra » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:49 pm

I don't know much of anything about the class, but it sounds like part of the problem is that they have multiple buffs that are putting them over the top. Perhaps the easiest fix to it would be limiting or further reducing the number of buffs they can maintain? I mean presumably the 30% combat buff and the big defense thing together is the problem, but if they had to pick between the two...

I'm sure someone with more experience with the guild and combat in general can come up with better solutions, but that was just my first thought.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Laroremas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:56 pm

1) Remove the melee bonus provided by Boar Spirit or make it very small. The toughness provided by this buff does not make us unkillable by any means and I'm fairly confident that a Templar or Mercenary utilizing a massive weapon with skills close to my own would be 2x or even 3x as unstoppable (especially the Templar)

2) The reason I didn't die in that invasion is because I was on a warhorse (huge percentage based buff to melee rolls) and got a lucky hit on the chick with 3k+ dodge and 3.8k x2 parry rolls, rode in while she was already engaged trying to kill someone else, and also because I was using a massive weapon that instant killed her because she wasn't wearing any armor. This is something anyone could have done if they were utilizing a weapon that does enough damage. The bandit leader was also alone, making it way easier to kill them.

3) That same hit would have killed me if another person utilizing a massive weapon had hit me in the same spot, even if I was using the Boar Spirit. Certainly a crossbow or musket would have done the same, and perhaps even some elemancy spells (which can safely be fired from hiding, as I understand it, though I could be wrong here).

4) The reason the bandit reinforcements did not kill me (they actually got pretty close) is because I SOMEHOW managed to perceive most of them retreating into stealth, which resulted in dodges and whatnot when they did eventually try to attack. Yet again another instance of luck, something that is effectively a core mechanic of our game.

5) During the raid on the Concord enacted by the infested and the bandits, I was taking 50+ damage even with the Boar Spirit active. This number would have been much, much smaller if it were a Templar or Mercenary or anyone in heavy armor the mobs were being made to attack. I survived by virtue of my group mates effectively killing them.

It seems we've reached that point, the "our characters are outleveling current, average challenge" point. I'm kind of flattered it was me to do it, though I have a good feeling if a few other select characters were more active and noisy about their potential exploits, this would have happened quite a bit sooner. Combat in CLOK is inherently deadly in COUNTLESS ways and I have a good feeling that in less than a year (or perhaps a bit longer) if people continue to play their current characters, we'll run into this same blockade but with their guilds.

What do we do to prevent this? Are these other guilds nerfed? Is weapon damage on the whole lowered? Are additional penalties added and applied to said massive weapons? Is stealth made more difficult to pull off? Are additional areas implemented that permit for proper perception training to defeat this particular instant win scenario?

It's tough. I've adapted countless times to adjustments and tweaks to my guild and I have gladly done so, offering (what I certainly believe to be) valuable input so as to make these things happen. More often than not, they came silently (and long ago). I've had a great deal of time to cultivate my character skill-wise which has in large part contributed to my mechanical (numerical) success. Any attempts to lower the amount of skill I possess now by way of lowering the effectiveness of these buffs will only make it easier for me to gain even more skill and ultimately my character will actually be even STRONGER than he is now.

The problem lies within the way these critter thresholds are established and the fact that any overwhelming success is met with surprise, anger and confusion. There is an effective soft cap established in game by way of the list of available areas, how difficult the "end game" areas are to actually gain skill in and the amount of damage outputted (or the scripts these NPCs employ) that make it virtually impossible to proceed beyond a certain point.

Let me say this:

I will take a free guild switch to the Templar to really show you how broken general combat is. For now, however, I am content to demonstrate that the game itself, at its very core, is deadly; there are countless ways to kill my character (that I'll not divulge right here, of course, though I'll be glad to elaborate on them in PMs) that inspire me to continue to raise my skills to combat them. Even then, it is not entirely possible to keep myself safe.

In closing:

Have you entertained the possibility that perhaps a well-trained Dwaedn may be better suited to these sorts of invasions? The thought that perhaps I've gotten a bit lucky in the realm of not outright dying during them by virtue of Generalization? That massive weapon damage is maybe a little bit too high for everyone (I've been instant killed by it myself even with the Boar Spirit)?

Fundamentally, as numbers grow larger and dice are rolled with this in mind, the potential for huge failures and huge successes (assuming the two die rolls are opposed) grows. Eventually, assuming this game goes on for long enough, GMs will have to provide that aforementioned band-aid because players will simply possess numbers high enough to possibly kill anything and everything sent their way. Unless, of course, it was always intended that we would have a hard cap of sorts in regards to how high we can raise our skills.

Pardon the rambling, but I should say that I could have done this and reached this point with quite a number of guilds in the game and it just so happens that I ended up with this one because it was what I was most interested in playing when I started. We need to analyze the core mechanics of the game before outright nerfing my guild on the whole otherwise we'll be heading down a whole different spiraling cavern that is actually far less effective in solving the problem. (i.e. WoW, in its latest expansion, lowering across the board the amount of damage done because the upward scale they'd held prior was no longer sustainable)

Other Dwaedn should chime in here, as was said prior.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Lysse » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:01 pm

Something that might be worth looking into, is a system that eventually and gradually punishes a Dwaedn Wyr for relying on a single Hallowed Burial blessing too heavily. It could start out as working at a decreased rate (so, Boar would soak less damage, for instance) without any easily visible indicator of such, and take steps downwards where the buff stops working, and then eventually perhaps even does some form of damage to the Dwaedn Wyr, as he or she incurs the ire of the spirits for leaning too heavily on them.

This could be countered by rewarding Dwaedn Wyr that switch up their Hallowed Burial buffs frequently, in that they would likely never incur this issue by keeping their Hallowed Burials 1.) varied, and 2.) not super frequent. To avoid people simple cycling through Hallowed Burial buffs in their downtime in order to maximize their Buff boons, make it so that frequently taking up a Hallowed Burial blessing without fighting incurs other penalties of some kind.




As to why the Boar blessing might reduce dodge? Boars are typically very aggressive, single minded creatures when enraged. So making Boar's Blessing give a minor penalty to dodge (and then, if you really want to be Fun, making it so that taking up the Boar Blessing has a chance to swap a PC into Tactics Offense automatically) might be viable in terms of lore.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by preiman » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:10 pm

so having done both templar and Dwaedn, though I'll admit I've done my Dwaedn much less, I'll say the biggest advantage they have is that a lot if not all of their buffs stack, yes i can only have one animal blessing at a time, but i can then toss onto that a couple shouts, and a bonus for crushing a mook, even as a templar i can't manage anything close to this, yes i have my chants, but with the exception of zeal, none of them stack with each other.
perhaps the solution is removing the ability to stack the buffs, though I will concede Lars's point that this will likely result in just more training to get back to this place, though it will do so in a way that lets you quickly glance at peoples numbers and see what an event is likely to attract in terms of pc numbers, and let you account for it when setting things up.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Laroremas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:15 pm

preiman wrote:so having done both templar and Dwaedn, though I'll admit I've done my Dwaedn much less, I'll say the biggest advantage they have is that a lot if not all of their buffs stack, yes i can only have one animal blessing at a time, but i can then toss onto that a couple shouts, and a bonus for crushing a mook, even as a templar i can't manage anything close to this, yes i have my chants, but with the exception of zeal, none of them stack with each other.
perhaps the solution is removing the ability to stack the buffs, though I will concede Lars's point that this will likely result in just more training to get back to this place, though it will do so in a way that lets you quickly glance at peoples numbers and see what an event is likely to attract in terms of pc numbers, and let you account for it when setting things up.


The buffs you speak of take energy to use. Templar have the ability to restore energy (I believe) to themselves and receive the ability to not be knocked down at all (or at least have a chance not to be knocked down). Templar also have the ability to make use of shields and full plate armor, which significantly increases their ability to survive. Even without a shield their ability to kill becomes much greater, especially if they're using a massive weapon. Especially if they've invested any amount of time into raising their defensive abilities.

Dwaedn don't have these things, even with toughness provided by an animal spirit buff. Even if they were initially intended to serve as glass cannons, the method by which they need to output their damage requires them to be in constant danger.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Kunren » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:19 pm

Hmmm... I think Dwaedens biggest advantage might be longevity. they don't have heavy armor or channeling to speed up their energy usage at all, like other similarly combat strong guilds (elemancers, rooks, Templar,) which means they will keep their rolls higher for longer, and die slower. Maybe make their abilities use up more energy? Have a constant energy drain for bear strength, shouts use up more energy, ect ect.

Also bear strength. Bear strength OP. Cant wait for the bottled version when herbalism update hits XD
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by preiman » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:24 pm

I again take your point, though my chants do also take energy, the one that gives back energy is called resolve, and after it's energy costs are taken into account, it's only 40 energy to me with a 1 minute cool down, and i can't stack it with any of the combat buff chants except for zeal, which is a minor melee buff and the chance to get an extra attack if i'm using a shield. it's a good combo, but not perhaps the unstopable one I think people think it is. when people see maric fighting forever without a break, it's usually because i've convinced one of the monks to pump energy into me while i fight.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Dorn » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:25 pm

Laroremas wrote:Fundamentally, as numbers grow larger and dice are rolled with this in mind, the potential for huge failures and huge successes (assuming the two die rolls are opposed) grows. Eventually, assuming this game goes on for long enough, GMs will have to provide that aforementioned band-aid because players will simply possess numbers high enough to possibly kill anything and everything sent their way. Unless, of course, it was always intended that we would have a hard cap of sorts in regards to how high we can raise our skills.

Pardon the rambling, but I should say that I could have done this and reached this point with quite a number of guilds in the game and it just so happens that I ended up with this one because it was what I was most interested in playing when I started. We need to analyze the core mechanics of the game before outright nerfing my guild on the whole otherwise we'll be heading down a whole different spiraling cavern that is actually far less effective in solving the problem. (i.e. WoW, in its latest expansion, lowering across the board the amount of damage done because the upward scale they'd held prior was no longer sustainable)

Other Dwaedn should chime in here, as was said prior.


Can't really speak on Dwaedn specifics, but I totally agree with this.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Laroremas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

preiman wrote:when people see maric fighting forever without a break, it's usually because i've convinced one of the monks to pump energy into me while i fight.


Dwaedn can't really fight forever without running away.

Primarily because they die if they try to.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by preiman » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:35 pm

on my own neither can i. on my own, all the resolve really does, is sort of mitigate some of the energy loss of wearing the armor. and even there only sort of.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by preiman » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:48 pm

I'll admit, when i have a few moments to get ready, i can be a big lumbering engine of destruction, but the other thing I'll bring up, especially if we're drawing comparisons between Dwaedn and Templar, in order to gain their abilities, which i'll admit are really quite great, A Templar must accept some serious limitations on how they might use those abilities, and on what they can do in general. It's something of a trade off, great power, great responsibility, or something like that.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Laroremas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:50 pm

My point was that just about any guild can accomplish this, especially guilds with huge defensive and offensive capability. Even with the limitations Templar face, you can succeed in the very same scenario I did (the one outlined in the OP, and perhaps even moreso) without a Templar's expected morals being compromised.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by preiman » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:56 pm

without being there I can't say for sure. I don't actually know how you and i stack up against each other in skills, though i'd guess we're probably not all that far apart.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Laroremas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:57 pm

Let's just say Claudin was well on the way to doing the very same thing I did during this event, the only difference being that I did it first.

If there was any frustration about this event being curtailed, perhaps the boss mob should have had a posse with her.

Jirato wrote: They SHOULD be a terror in combat, and anyone going up against them should feel that "Oh crap, I'm going to die." feeling, one on one.


Because this precise scenario happened. The mobs summoned afterwards (and I did receive reinforcements in the realm of Garith toward the end where I was close to death) were already beneath me to begin with, and would still be if there was no buff associated with the Boar Spirit in the realm of Melee bonus or even toughness bonus.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Bryce » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:34 pm

I've seen elemancers, thieves, and rooks all completely destroy in some large invasion situations as well when I thought they'd be dead meat in an instant. Sometimes the Random Number God favors you and it's glorious, other times you get one-shotted right out the door. Heavy armor wearers like Templar and Mercenaries enjoy more dependable survivability, but they typically can't dish the mass amounts of damage, especially if they're using a shield so their weapon is either lighter, or in the case of hand-and-a-halfers, being used with only one hand. The exception is Templar against masses of nethrim where they're second to none (though pyromancers can give them competition), but that's as it should be.

I think a key to a more successful or dangerous invasion is variety. Like Melee, Ranged, Stealth. I bet Lars would have had to retreat if there were any archers, spellcasters, slingers, hurlers, what have you mixed in, instead of just a bunch of squishy bandits wielding light swords and daggers that could be easily destroyed because they're in engage and letting the berserker right at them to tear their faces off without any significant armor. I think a Dwaedn of Lars' skill (I'm guessing here, but it sounds like his skills are exceptionally high at this point) SHOULD have handily owned that situation. I just have this vision of a cartoony dust cloud with a Dwaedn at the center and all the bad guys flying out of the whirlwind of death with X-ed out eyes. Throw in some ranged guys though, and now the Dwaedn need to close position on each of them, and also can't parry their attacks, aside from blade slapping an arrow every so often.

I don't think making their defense or damage reduction weaker is going to make much of a difference. They already are pretty much restricted to soft leather, and can choose boar blessing if they want to be at around ... what is it equivalent to, rigid leather? Their approach is "kill it before it kills you", and they can kill things VERY quickly with their huge damage output and haste-like shout.

P.S. Don't Dwaedn also get an energy regen shout, or was that taken away/nerfed?

TL;DR: I think Dwaedn should own melee. If you want to really challenge them in special scenarios and invasions, use ranged attackers to pepper them with damage while avoiding combat engagement while the melee mobs keep them busy. (Give the archers longbows - those things HURT.) Variety is key: using a bunch of one kind of mob has the potential to be wiped out quickly by someone who can easily handle that type of mob.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Laroremas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:40 pm

I couldn't have said it better myself. I hadn't even considered that different sorts of NPCs could have very easily turned that situation into an unwinnable one.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Zoiya » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:42 pm

I get it guys, don't worry, I won't be doing any invasions in the future so it should be balanced correctly.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Laroremas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:45 pm

Zoiya wrote:I get it guys, don't worry, I won't be doing any invasions in the future so it should be balanced correctly.


Everything is trial and error; like I said, I totally appreciate everything that you do. No one is trying to discredit your attempts, not by a long shot. This is me (and others) trying to demonstrate that my guild is in a pretty good spot, so far as the long run is concerned.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Kunren » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:46 pm

Yes. Let us fight waves of shield bearers guarding hordes of archers in tactics guardian, with a few enemy rooks throwing in random hauntings here and there.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Laroremas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:48 pm

Kunren wrote:Yes. Let us fight waves of shield bearers guarding hordes of archers in tactics guardian, with a few enemy rooks throwing in random hauntings here and there.


This has actually been done before, at least vaguely, what with the lich horde and his army of guard-thugs.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Bryce » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:49 pm

I don't think anyone meant that it was a bad or mismanaged invasion, Zoiya. An invasion of bandits is an invasion of bandits. Just offering explanations on why this one in particular was so quickly handled by a Dwaedn, and offering my own thoughts that I don't think Dwaedn aren necessarily overpowered and in need of nerfing because of it - they're just really good at their niche, which is destroying swathes of squishy/light-armored melee mobs. Like Templar are to incorporeal or unarmored nethrim, or assassins and thieves are to nonperceptive light-armored targets.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Zoiya » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:53 pm

Bryce wrote:I don't think anyone meant that it was a bad or mismanaged invasion, Zoiya. An invasion of bandits is an invasion of bandits. Just offering explanations on why this one in particular was so quickly handled by a Dwaedn, and offering my own thoughts that I don't think Dwaedn aren necessarily overpowered and in need of nerfing because of it - they're just really good at their niche, which is destroying swathes of squishy/light-armored melee mobs. Like Templar are to incorporeal or unarmed nethrim, or assassins and thieves are to nonperceptive light-armored targets.



That invasion isn't why this thread was brought up, it's been a whole stockpile of things we've seen since generalization has been released. The second invasion, the one with the archers, and the stealth and the tanks was handled much in the same way.

It didn't make a difference if the invasion was balanced or what not. This isn't just some quick decision based on two or three days of observation. This is something we've been watching for about a month.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Laroremas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:58 pm

Zoiya wrote:
Bryce wrote:I don't think anyone meant that it was a bad or mismanaged invasion, Zoiya. An invasion of bandits is an invasion of bandits. Just offering explanations on why this one in particular was so quickly handled by a Dwaedn, and offering my own thoughts that I don't think Dwaedn aren necessarily overpowered and in need of nerfing because of it - they're just really good at their niche, which is destroying swathes of squishy/light-armored melee mobs. Like Templar are to incorporeal or unarmed nethrim, or assassins and thieves are to nonperceptive light-armored targets.



That invasion isn't why this thread was brought up, it's been a whole stockpile of things we've seen since generalization has been released. The second invasion, the one with the archers, and the stealth and the tanks was handled much in the same way.

It didn't make a difference if the invasion was balanced or what not. This isn't just some quick decision based on two or three days of observation. This is something we've been watching for about a month.


This invasion is why this thread was brought up, because you had a conversation or two or three with the other GMs after seeing how it went down. I had 10+ people with me in the secondary and tertiary invasion, which is why I also (surprise, surprise) didn't meet an untimely end. If this was more about analyzing the general scope of things instead of focusing efforts on my guild and I, I can see how this might be a constructive conversation.

If this was less of a personal and specialized affair, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Right now, though, it seems more targeted and short sighted and I'd be glad to offer some alternatives to assist in the realm of providing a more lasting solution to the problem you lot seem to have perceived.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Post by Zoiya » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:06 pm

Laroremas wrote:
Zoiya wrote:
Bryce wrote:I don't think anyone meant that it was a bad or mismanaged invasion, Zoiya. An invasion of bandits is an invasion of bandits. Just offering explanations on why this one in particular was so quickly handled by a Dwaedn, and offering my own thoughts that I don't think Dwaedn aren necessarily overpowered and in need of nerfing because of it - they're just really good at their niche, which is destroying swathes of squishy/light-armored melee mobs. Like Templar are to incorporeal or unarmed nethrim, or assassins and thieves are to nonperceptive light-armored targets.



That invasion isn't why this thread was brought up, it's been a whole stockpile of things we've seen since generalization has been released. The second invasion, the one with the archers, and the stealth and the tanks was handled much in the same way.

It didn't make a difference if the invasion was balanced or what not. This isn't just some quick decision based on two or three days of observation. This is something we've been watching for about a month.


This invasion is why this thread was brought up, because you had a conversation or two or three with the other GMs after seeing how it went down. I had 10+ people with me in the secondary and tertiary invasion, which is why I also (surprise, surprise) didn't meet an untimely end. If this was more about analyzing the general scope of things instead of focusing efforts on my guild and I, I can see how this might be a constructive conversation.

If this was less of a personal and specialized affair, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Right now, though, it seems more targeted and short sighted and I'd be glad to offer some alternatives to assist in the realm of providing a more lasting solution to the problem you lot seem to have perceived.



If you're going to outright call me a liar then I think I'm done with this part of the conversation. Ever since generalized abilities were released we've been talking about balance and change and Dwaedn had come up a few times during that discussion.

I'm happy to keep reading and listening to whatever discussion you guys have from here on out, but I'm going to stay out of it.

Please continue to discuss the topic at hand, as always we welcome the feedback that you all give us.
[CHAT - Lil' Skittles GM Zoiya escalates quickly]: *hugs Kent*
[CHAT - Kent "Gunney" Gunderman]: *gingerly hugs back*
[CHAT - Grandmaster Ardor will be NOM'd by a drakolin]: You can give Zoiya a bearhug Kent, she can handle it.

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