Dwaedn as glass cannons

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Laroremas » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:08 pm

It was pretty clear you were upset with the outcome of your planned invasion after I participated in it. I'm not calling you a liar, I'm operating on facts provided. You made as much pretty clear on chat after the fact. I'm far more comfortable with decisions made to undo work I've put in over the years being made by someone going into discussions with a level head than I am with the alternative I just outlined.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Jirato » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:22 am

Boy do I regret using that invasion as an example now. This isn't about you personally, "undoing your progress" or anything like that.

As Zoiya said, we've been observing this for months. Guess what, I main a Dwaedn and feel the exact same way about him as I do you, and I also feel that way when observing any other Dwaedn in combat. When I first started playing him, yes, he was a killing machine, but he was a stoppable killing machine. Now, after several years of gradual changes and now generalization, even though he's put significantly less time into grinding his skills than you, for example, he is pretty darn near unstoppable.

The point here isn't "Lars rekt an invasion", the point is there is little to no risk a Dwaedn faces against Npc/critter foes.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Laroremas » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:11 am

Jirato wrote:Boy do I regret using that invasion as an example now. This isn't about you personally, "undoing your progress" or anything like that.

As Zoiya said, we've been observing this for months. Guess what, I main a Dwaedn and feel the exact same way about him as I do you, and I also feel that way when observing any other Dwaedn in combat. When I first started playing him, yes, he was a killing machine, but he was a stoppable killing machine. Now, after several years of gradual changes and now generalization, even though he's put significantly less time into grinding his skills than you, for example, he is pretty darn near unstoppable.

The point here isn't "Lars rekt an invasion", the point is there is little to no risk a Dwaedn faces against Npc/critter foes.


1) What exactly is he unstoppable against, your character? Which NPC/critters? Should Dwaedn be having a harder time than other guilds in the realm of raising their skills and fighting the paltry, laughable-to-anyone-who-can-type-a-direction-if-they-get-into-trouble hierarchy of NPCs that is necessary to acquire a respectable skill level?

2) Which "gradual changes" have contributed to Dwaedn being stronger? Generalization helped present (primarily) three defensive options that a Dwaedn could potentially take, one of which already has already been nerfed (Tumble), one that may very well BE nerfed in the future (Blade Slap) and one that remains unnerfed (Arrow Deflection). Two of these require a Brawling pre-req. You probably feel like your main character is unkillable because he has not had to fight in situations whereupon he could be killed, which is understandable because you've been working on our game and all that good stuff for a while now. Lightfoot is also a defensive option, but probably not by much? I don't know. As it stands now, apart from Blade Slap (which I can no longer use because Brawling is no longer usable) and Arrow Deflection (which certainly doesn't stop the 50+ damage, I'm-even-in-Boar-Spirit-hey-this-is-eye-instant-kill-damage EVERY time) my ability list looks exactly like what my old ability list looked like. Except now, it's bloated with pre-req abilities I need to actually function somewhat closely to how I did before.

2.a) TL;DR Thanks Generalization, I can slap arrows now. But now I can't throw things. :( That's okay, though, because a while back you guys made a bunch of things unthrowable anyway.

3) SHOULDN'T NPC/critter foes (unless they're wearing heavy armor, unless they're practically invulnerable using position avoid and a ranged weapon, unless they're a fire-breathing, big-tailed, scaled lizard, unless they're talented Stealth users popping in and out [or better yet, actually moving around], etc.) pose little to no risk against a Dwaedn? Especially in one-on-one scenarios. Especially if they're critters. I thought that was my guild's bread and butter, walking around, beating up animals and putting flowers on their grave once the dance was done.

Of the three MASSIVE TAN SCORPIONS the GM team sent my way (who had rolls lower than mine), I had to run from two of them to catch my character's breath (one scenario it was impossible to do so because I was getting chased and I actually lucked out killing it, the first one) despite me having the bigger numbers. I know for a fact there's only one other Dwaedn (who only sometimes plays) that could even remotely be considered having skills even close to mine. The rest are in that low-middling range, fighting creatures that pretty much don't pose a threat to anyone with half a brain and aren't AFK.

I honestly don't see the problem with how my guild is functioning at present.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Xyra » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:53 am

One way you could see if there is a significant difference in surviveability would be to custom create two characters of different guilds (or 5 of 5 different guides or whatever) and give them similar levels of skills in relevant skills. Give them their abilities and appropriate equipment and whatever else they would usually have to function, and then just drop them into test combats against various combinations of enemies. View how they perform.

I think you need to check artificially like that to see if your conclusions are really correct or not, because right now the evidence sounds largely anecdotal. And while I know the GMs have access to all kinds of crazy data, it's important to remember that right now the data is being weighted by the fact that some people play more than others, have higher skills than others, maybe are using better equipment. There are a large number of little factors that can be hard to tease out, so the easiest way is to simply take them out entirely.

Maybe get Laroremas to prepare an artificial Dwaedn character as specified above, and then have some high end Templar do the same for a Templar, and an elemental guy and a few others and see how they perform against critters as compared to each other. And remember to vary up the critters. Does a high defense critter give the Dwaedn a problem because they can't just one shot them? Or maybe a high attack critter that manages to take the Dwaedn down before they can do their damage. Perhaps Templars have troubles with swarms of things while Dwaedn simply crush them each quickly in turn.

Also keep in mind that at time glass cannons can feel like full on armored tanks, simply by virtue of nothing being alive to break the glass.

Sorry if I sound like I'm being aggressive of dismissive to the GMs and the work you do, I'm not trying to be, I just want to put out the reminder that there are more neutral ways to gather the data to make this kind of decision than have been discussed so far, which is mostly anecdotal coming from both sides.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Acarin » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:28 am

I actually think that this is a very good idea. Make a series of optimized artificial tester characters from each guild. Place each into a series of scenarios and test each. The data collected from a balance perspective would be extremely useful. Maric and Zuki were considering testing templar versus brotherhood in the combat arena to see just how much of a disadvantage a brotherhood member would have. Taric suggested similar tests as well. Something more controlled would be interesting and would likely solve a considerable amount of the balance issues people have been throwing back and forth. I would recommend testing PvP as well as scenarios such as multiple critters/invasions.

EDIT: That's not to say that there shouldn't be advantages and disadvantages to each guild but all guilds right now are far from equal in the number of situations they can handle.

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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Fayne » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:39 am

Yeah, I just wanna throw in my two cents here and say, yes, a Dwaedn Wyr character is fairly powerful. But as Lars pointed out, they're only powerful offensively. Defensively, they have only what Generalization opened up to them, and as he also pointed out, it isn't much. But, I would like to point to the wiki on this topic. The wiki itself states that Dwaedn Wyr are pretty much a "one-truck pony" and are pretty much unsurpassed when it comes to offensive capabilities. You can't nerf a guild whose main purpose is to be the superb offensive guild just because they throw a wrench in the gears of plotlines if and when they get lucky shots in they manage to be major badasses like they are designed to be. I mean, hell, that's practically like complaining your pancakes are soggy after drenching them in maple syrup.

Also, another thing, you know what I've seen a powerful Rook do? Take down a drakolin singlehandedly, no help at all, in less than 30 seconds. You know what I've never seen a Dwaedn do? Take down a drakolin by themselves, let alone in 30 seconds.

The only perfect solution available to situations like this is to put a hard cap on all abilities, and make all guilds virtually equally, with the only difference being they each get their own fancy combat moves that essentially don't give them any distinct advantages, but look cool as [crap]. And to be perfectly honest, that sounds like what would make the GMs happiest. Sorry if I'm being a bit too blunt. But seriously, whining about what is supposed to be the superior offense guild being superior in combat makes it seem that way. Maybe the real issue is you're frustrated that certain characters are stopping plotlines from happening. In that case, you have options: distract the character in question, or start the event when they aren't online.

Can we please stop trying to nerf everything to high heaven now, please? It's getting to the point where I may not even come back to play CLOK again at all, because casual players like myself who can't play for hours and hours on end every single day have no chance of having fun, because we are constantly outmatched by those who do. If you want to make things fair to everyone involved, put hard caps on every skill, or, better yet, make everyone choose a limited number of skills they want to be good at from the very beginning, and eliminate skillgain altogether. Alternatively, stop nerfing everything by constantly raising prereqs, constantly reducing their effectiveness, putting limits and restraints on everything, and stop limiting our RP further and further. I'm about two more nerfs away from just deciding this game isn't for anyone who doesn't want to live on it, and never coming back, because if I want to start a new character to relieve myself of the stress from playing one who is pretty anyagonistic to quite a few characters, I'd have to focus on that character and grind every chance I got for months on end just to get to the lower end of barely adequate compaired to everyone else who plays all the time.

Now, my apologies for hijacking the topic, but I did add to it as well, so, carry on.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Zoiya » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:49 am

Fayne wrote:Can we please stop trying to nerf everything to high heaven now, please?


We stated when generalization was released that it was in its most basic form and balance would need to be done on these abilities. Everyone knew that was coming.

Fayne wrote: Alternatively, stop nerfing everything by constantly raising prereqs, constantly reducing their effectiveness, putting limits and restraints on everything, and stop limiting our RP further and further.


We are not limiting your RP by balancing the abilities released. You can RP any way you want - but the main thing we've said and the reason general abilities became a thing is because we want you to be able to do anything, but not master everything. If we just let you guys run off and do anything you wanted, anytime you wanted to do it - there would be chaos and you'd be complaining that people were out of control.

Fayne wrote:The rest of your post.


You've been gone for a while, I would hope that you would stop back in, see what the changes are bringing to the game and suggest more dynamic ways of doing things before you just senselessly bash at us. We're doing the best we can in a difficult situation - we're not balancing things to "piss people off".
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Dakhal » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:55 am

Fighting Words: I can kill Lars if I try as hard as I can.

My skills are far inferior to his.
You just have to fight the right way.

This means that CvC should be fine, and CvE needs addressed.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Jirato » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:00 am

Fayne wrote:You know what I've never seen a Dwaedn do? Take down a drakolin by themselves, let alone in 30 seconds.


I have. In 5 seconds.


To say that Dwaedn have no defensive ability beyond generalization is incorrect. They have Boar's blessing, which gives them damage padding greater than rigid leather armor. They also get percentage based melee bonuses on a variety of abilities, which directly applies to 25% of their dodge/parry rolls. One such ability also causes demoralization to every other critter in the room upon knockdown, something that is pretty much gauranteed with the number of attacks they have capable of knockdown. This demoralization effect greatly reduces the offense capabiity of who they're fighting. They also have the ability to completely paralyze their opponents with fear so they can whack away at them with zero risk. These kinds of debuffs and disablers are defensive abilities.

I'm NOT looking at making Dwaedn any weaker, offensively.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Lysse » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:17 am

Jirato wrote:
Fayne wrote:You know what I've never seen a Dwaedn do? Take down a drakolin by themselves, let alone in 30 seconds.


I have. In 5 seconds.



Same. It's very possible for a Dwaedn Wyr to solo a drakolin under the correct conditions. Just like under the correct conditions, it's possible for a Rook to do so.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Lavi » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:41 am

Fayne wrote:The only perfect solution available to situations like this is to put a hard cap on all abilities, and make all guilds virtually equally, with the only difference being they each get their own fancy combat moves that essentially don't give them any distinct advantages, but look cool as [crap]. And to be perfectly honest, that sounds like what would make the GMs happiest. Sorry if I'm being a bit too blunt. But seriously, whining about what is supposed to be the superior offense guild being superior in combat makes it seem that way. Maybe the real issue is you're frustrated that certain characters are stopping plotlines from happening. In that case, you have options: distract the character in question, or start the event when they aren't online.

Can we please stop trying to nerf everything to high heaven now, please? It's getting to the point where I may not even come back to play CLOK again at all, because casual players like myself who can't play for hours and hours on end every single day have no chance of having fun, because we are constantly outmatched by those who do. If you want to make things fair to everyone involved, put hard caps on every skill, or, better yet, make everyone choose a limited number of skills they want to be good at from the very beginning, and eliminate skillgain altogether. Alternatively, stop nerfing everything by constantly raising prereqs, constantly reducing their effectiveness, putting limits and restraints on everything, and stop limiting our RP further and further. I'm about two more nerfs away from just deciding this game isn't for anyone who doesn't want to live on it, and never coming back, because if I want to start a new character to relieve myself of the stress from playing one who is pretty anyagonistic to quite a few characters, I'd have to focus on that character and grind every chance I got for months on end just to get to the lower end of barely adequate compaired to everyone else who plays all the time.

Now, my apologies for hijacking the topic, but I did add to it as well, so, carry on.


I can see you added to the topic in question, but the adjusting of skills has been said from the beginning that it'd be harder to get. I have made a Rook into a powerhouse just by taking three abilities over three others. It's allowed me to be able to make a character that I want to roleplay, and how I want to roleplay. Generalization isn't really limiting roleplay in my opinion, it's freeing up a lot of things. It just needs adjusted so we don't have a situation where we get a player who can clear the board constently, whether it be CVE or CVC.

Part of what I see here is that you want to be able to make an antagonistic character without having to put in some of the work in volved. Or for it to be easy. I really get that. But at the same time, if it were like that it'd be another game of mindless player killing. Clok isn't for everyone. I've had to take quite a few breaks and play characters who I can play without losing it when things happen. No one would fault you for saying I'm going to go somewhere else. But we'd like you to stay. Changes are hard, but there's a lot of cool things about the change too.
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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Dorn » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:50 am

Lavi wrote:
Fayne wrote:The only perfect solution available to situations like this is to put a hard cap on all abilities, and make all guilds virtually equally, with the only difference being they each get their own fancy combat moves that essentially don't give them any distinct advantages, but look cool as [crap]. And to be perfectly honest, that sounds like what would make the GMs happiest. Sorry if I'm being a bit too blunt. But seriously, whining about what is supposed to be the superior offense guild being superior in combat makes it seem that way. Maybe the real issue is you're frustrated that certain characters are stopping plotlines from happening. In that case, you have options: distract the character in question, or start the event when they aren't online.

Can we please stop trying to nerf everything to high heaven now, please? It's getting to the point where I may not even come back to play CLOK again at all, because casual players like myself who can't play for hours and hours on end every single day have no chance of having fun, because we are constantly outmatched by those who do. If you want to make things fair to everyone involved, put hard caps on every skill, or, better yet, make everyone choose a limited number of skills they want to be good at from the very beginning, and eliminate skillgain altogether. Alternatively, stop nerfing everything by constantly raising prereqs, constantly reducing their effectiveness, putting limits and restraints on everything, and stop limiting our RP further and further. I'm about two more nerfs away from just deciding this game isn't for anyone who doesn't want to live on it, and never coming back, because if I want to start a new character to relieve myself of the stress from playing one who is pretty anyagonistic to quite a few characters, I'd have to focus on that character and grind every chance I got for months on end just to get to the lower end of barely adequate compaired to everyone else who plays all the time.

Now, my apologies for hijacking the topic, but I did add to it as well, so, carry on.


I can see you added to the topic in question, but the adjusting of skills has been said from the beginning that it'd be harder to get. I have made a Rook into a powerhouse just by taking three abilities over three others. It's allowed me to be able to make a character that I want to roleplay, and how I want to roleplay. Generalization isn't really limiting roleplay in my opinion, it's freeing up a lot of things. It just needs adjusted so we don't have a situation where we get a player who can clear the board constently, whether it be CVE or CVC.

Part of what I see here is that you want to be able to make an antagonistic character without having to put in some of the work in volved. Or for it to be easy. I really get that. But at the same time, if it were like that it'd be another game of mindless player killing. Clok isn't for everyone. I've had to take quite a few breaks and play characters who I can play without losing it when things happen. No one would fault you for saying I'm going to go somewhere else. But we'd like you to stay. Changes are hard, but there's a lot of cool things about the change too.


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Re: Dwaedn as glass cannons

Postby Hakon » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:43 pm

About the boar spirit blessing previously mentioned, I've recently been trying it out to see how much it really does for me. I have to admit that boar spirit + shouts for a class that's meant to be glass cannon makes them somewhat less glass cannony than I'd expect.

My shouts alone, without the boar spirit, pre-fury shout nerf, made me pretty strong, but still, going through the training grounds I frequent, I was fairly stoppable when my enemies hit me down eventually. Pretty sure with the boar spirit I'd be very unstoppable in more defensive tactics, at least in my training areas. As it is with the fury nerf and the boar blessing, I can basically walk through areas that stopped me easily before.

I personally think lightening the nerf on the fury shout, not totally but somewhat, somehow, and instead lessening the amount of armor given by the boar blessing, could be an option worth considering. Throwing unarmored people who are not likely to always keep up a constant boar blessing is pretty difficult to work with, in my experience so far. It's a suicide button for me really.

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