Monks under review

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mercer
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Re: Monks under review

Post by mercer » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:26 am

Nobody wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:24 pm
After a little while of playing a monk, my thoughts are these:
- The herbalism tasks feel like they pre-date the change to grinding giving no skill gains. I'd recommend the grind based tasks give a flat 0.2 herbalism gain, or a graded gain (0.1 for inferior, 0.2 for average, 0.3-0.4 for potent). This isn't necessary though, as herbalism feels like a small part of being a monk, so limited gains haven't really felt hampering.
- If herbalism is intended to be a large part of playing a monk, I'd recommend adding an expanded poultice making ability. This could also potentially resolve the RP disconnect of Dimmes and Sophia asking for herbs, which are not commonly known to be medicinal, for medicinal purposes while not teaching monks how to use those herbs to benefit others.*
- I don't think making the combat restrictions lighter would help, at least not at present. With the restrictions currently spelled out as they are the guild likely draws people who are not interested in combat, or who want to do support roles in combat.
- There is something difficult to describe that I'll make an attempt at. Playing a monk and thinking about compassion makes me feel the need to seek out people to aid, but there is no obviously visible need in CLOK. The orphanage looks like the best kept orphanage ever, there are no visible poor people in the streets, and people seem to be largely self sufficient already. Those things are good, I imagine many of them are the result of previous players' RP, in and out of the monastic order, and that's awesome. But over all I feel like monks need to be needed and they're only nice-to-have. I don't have a solution for that, it isn't really a proper problem, but it's the feel I feel.

I hope that feedback is helpful.

* I've thought about requesting to speak with Dimmes to ask him how to use these herbs, but that feels like using RP to beat up on the devs to me, so I haven't wanted to do that. I also haven't wanted to use poultice make to produce a bunch of experimental poultices when I expect that most of them will do nothing and donating them feels wrong for the same reason (I expect they're useless). If a monk-only expanded poultice ability gave poultices that were useless for players but useful for towns (treating warts, infections, helping bones to heal properly, etc.) I'd totally be greatful for the herb-sink and having something to donate that'd be legitimately useful for a town.
The biggest problem I've had with the hole monks herbs thing, is that anything we do in that field is vastly outdone by the udimi. What if we had specific monk only poultices, or could apply thaumaturgy to an herb mixture, kind of like a cream? apply poultice to limb or something like that, or spread cream over right hand. There can be different levels, or it can be when blood touches the cream, it reacts to the inner light combined with the once living herbs, and spreads healing over that limb maybe taking it from severe to moderate Before the light wears off leaving the poultice to do the rest of the work, or you applying a different poultice

mercer
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Re: Monks under review

Post by mercer » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:52 am

I really like the dodge suggestion but how will that work with energy? you'd loos energy holding the channel, and then more energy actually dodging. I remember seeing a thing that said it'd call up a thaum channel when you were about to get hit, kind of like advance flare Would it be to much to ask for a disengage?
(m:818 vs D:30)**You feel a sudden surge of warmth spread through your body, and nimbly dart out of the way. A moment later, a steady halo of soft golden light begins emanating from you or
(m:818 vs D:30)**You feel a sudden surge of warmth spread through your body, and nimbly dart out of the way. You make a small effort of will, and a tendral of light Lashes out, briefly blinding %n 5 Light dmg left eye !
energy -5 taking advantage of This, you safely step out from the fray of combat.


You could have the dodge you gain be dependent on how many channels your holding and how hi your base thaumaturgy is, for those situations when your going in to specifically help get corpses.


You could have some nethrem be afraid of monks
so when they go to attack and your holding thaumaturgy, *** a lost soul seems unwilling to approach the blinding halo of light! a lost soul leaves west

I need to test it but the biggest problem with radiance is that it doesn't stun when you enter a room it stuns when you first turn it on and a few seconds afterwords, but you have no way to no it'll trigger if you have to dart into a dangerous room to get a corpse and dart out

mercer
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Re: Monks under review

Post by mercer » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:18 am

Kent wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 8:10 pm
It's frustrating both for the monk and for the people who would like to have the monks teamed up with them that the monk can't participate in the spoils. This is why I suggested that monks be allowed to accept cash (for example, share command) and then donate half of their income to the donation box.
I'm still getting caught up, but all of this has gone way off the original topic I do want to say this because it seems to come up a lot. I disagree with this. I play a monk because I like the character and the way my rp comes out. I play it to heal, and to help where I can. Having access to spoilers or fighting, wouldn't do my character any good as he doesn't feel the desire to take up arms against another beeing reguardless of that beeings intentions. There should always be a way to resolve a situation without violence to him. To those who think monks should combat, that's fine, but please don't assume that we all play are characters that way.
On the subject of making monks more enjoyable to others , part of the issues is there a fully player reliant guild. Player vs player interaction is important, but is a problem in times when there are 2 or 3 people online. When there aren't players, there isn't much for a monk to do than go around to healers over and over again looking for people to heal. Even when there are players on, there is no guarantee that they will want or need your help I've suggested monks being able to announce that they are around for healing, but there is to much exploit in skil gains. I'm not actually sure what higher thaum and channeling does, I'm told you get tired less often? Either way Perhaps the solution here is to simply expand what it means to be a monk. Give them ways to supply the town, give them gp for doing things like selling food to the market, donating to the orphanage, mod the orphanage so stuff actually vanishes and needs to be replace, have some flavor of npcs actually using the stuff. There are so many ways you can rp a monk, but only two of them gain you points in the eyes of the npcworld.
You could do small things like if a monk goes to buy a blanket or a bedroll, they get it for a discount or for free. perks like that might help people feel less like they have to net lots of riln though I've never really understood that particularly with the mount changes. monks don't have a lot they can even do with recognition points. I get that's the point, to make monks feel like they don't need money. so maybe have us pay for things we need with those in certain places. Aside from making more crafts, or modding the ones we already have, I'm still trying to think of more ways to expand monklife as it is by far the character I enjoy the most
I've avoided mentioning rp to much as part of this seems to be a mecanics question.

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Re: Monks under review

Post by mercer » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:06 pm

I've been playing my monk so I can better think of things to suggest
Better balance in the reward from herb tasks. atlas stem which goes for 30riln in the market which implies that it is either very important, or very useful doesn't give you any more to turn in than any other herb task.
I just turned in 10 fresh fraer root, for 20 gp
The riln to gp conversion is rather lo, I turned 1000 riln and got 200gp and rp
which means if you wanted a horse specifically off riln donations you'd need 25000 riln, unless I messed up my math
Perhaps instead of riln, we could have making poultices give gp? foraging herbs give .1 gp per herb, or something like that, the problem with the riln thing, is that I'm concerned it will give players an actual mecanic reason to change the way they rp and start excepting riln donations, or doing things specifically for riln to donate it's only a little, but a it's still something, and a lot is still a lot even if it is less lott
monks really don't have an issue with gp and rp I'm rank 13 and have 11k recpoints I'll and I think it's 12 more ranks till max monk abil, I'd have to go check if your ok with that progression, that's fine with me, I'll get there when I get there
I play it because I enjoy the character, and it's interesting to see what he'll make of situations
I've never really had an issue playing or having fun in monk but it would be neat if there was more for us to do If we can make it so monks can go into more dangerous places, then you can up the challenge of go find the templer tasks, and there won't be this high level templer just chillin out stabbing the odd squirrel or two

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Kent
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:44 pm

mercer wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:18 am
Kent wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 8:10 pm
It's frustrating both for the monk and for the people who would like to have the monks teamed up with them that the monk can't participate in the spoils. This is why I suggested that monks be allowed to accept cash (for example, share command) and then donate half of their income to the donation box.
I'm still getting caught up, but all of this has gone way off the original topic I do want to say this because it seems to come up a lot. I disagree with this. I play a monk because I like the character and the way my rp comes out. I play it
You play it, yes, except for all the time that you don't play. And there are many other monks who don't play almost all the time, too. In fact, I can log in most days, and when I log in I can see so many monks not logged in at all, every day.
- Kent "Gunney" Gunderman


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Re: Monks under review

Post by Mafuane » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:19 am

I think it would be cute if monks could ordain npc marriage in the town halls as a task at certain ranks or spread the good word similar to mummer storytelling but at the churches.

It would be a Sunday only gig maybe to make it special and maybe get players involved. (We could spend a hefty gp fee to schedule it in so it's not too overdone)

Maybe cleaning the churches statues would be cool too, or delivering our sunburst candles to nelra, cleaning graffiti, maybe some midwife assistance! (Channel momma to push the baby out!)

Guest teacher at the orphanage based on skills, so if you don't know much about wood carving/farming/baking/herbs then you'd turn down the task, this giving incentive to learn the vito way or chuck a few guild points

Maybe have the churches exchange supplies and use a handcart or wagon to do so. Though I'm not sure how that would work code wise. A random cart/wagon popping up might be tempting to other players, possibly something like, our supply wagons horse got attacked at ebon pass and needs healing. Maybe make it competitive for any 'opportunistic guilds' to get there too
To offload the mad herbs we collect we could handcart/wagon them to different locations.

Using the higher up abilities to bless the land from nether for a tiny bit would be cool too, I wanna see that weird fern thing dance.

I've been noticing now that I'm back, I'm not getting sent to the brawler's retreat or Mistral anymore.

I think some cute stuff we could spend gp on would be converting crops into things; barley into some type of baked good or stew, watermelon into punch or popsicles, turnips into salad, berries into cobbler/candy/syrup pancakes, tomatoes and squash would be a fun lasagna!
Something special to send off in care packages or enjoy on the road.

I'll probably think of more eventually but I do hope these idea turn some gears :)

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Kiyaani
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kiyaani » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:10 am

I'm going to go ahead and address a few things in this thread as well as offer some suggestions. I want to start by saying I don't mean anyone any offense. I generally really enjoy how many ideas people have been coming up with and the tone things have taken. I also apologize in advance for how long this is.

So - first off - Mercer has a lot of really good ideas here for how to help monks be more defense-capable without leaning into a more combat-driven role. The dodge examples and information about radiance are interesting and definitely appreciated. I really enjoy the RP and task oriented suggestions by others as well. Mafuane definitely got some gears turning.

I think it's important to remember that the Church of Light isn't meant to be directly relational to any IRL churches so the role in society might be different as well. For example, Serafina isn't worshiped, but rather her example and teachings guide and inform behavior. The Church doesn't promote evangelism, but anyone can join. Even still, not everyone in the Church is able to channel their Inner Light. Reviewing the Church of Light page on the wiki might help people come up with more suggestions: http://clok.contrarium.net/index.php?ti ... h_of_Light

I really like the ideas for promoting more domestic hobbies for Church members brought up in this thread. This doesn't mean that all monks have to cook or farm, but it would be nice if those choosing to do so could have support for it through training and supplies. Being able to exchange points for handcarts, wagons, or tools seems like a good way to support that as well since monks seem to accumulate points far more than use them. Without a riln-cost, players would likely be more willing to return such items promptly rather than leaving them out which would solve the temptation by non-church folks issue. And even if a non-church person were to return the item, there would be no financial reward from doing so.

I'm not sure about spending GP to convert crops into food since we do have cooking in-game, but it would be interesting to be able to donate crops or herbs to the cafeteria to use as supplies or to have the kitchen opened up so we can use it to make things for the road crates or to donate to others. Yes there are already public kitchens, but this might be a fun alternative and incentive for monks. Providing food-only donation boxes in the orphanage or even around the various towns for the poor to use might be a nice touch as well.

Cleaning the church is something monks have RP'd performing in the past and it would be nice if it was officially supported by the task-system. Good suggestion there, Mafuane :)

I haven't really gotten heal tasks lately so I haven't seen a lack of tasks for the brawler's retreat specifically, but Mistral was possibly intentionally turned off for a while due to events in-game. Since things seem somewhat back to normal there, the tasks could likely be re-enabled if they were indeed turned off.

Kent, I'm not sure what to say to you at this point. I just don't see the point in calling someone out for not playing when they're making positive contributions to the thread and working to solve the "problem". I also don't see why you revived the thread in that manner a month later without contributing any ideas of your own. You're heavily engaging in a thread that has nothing to do with your characters, and it's not in a very constructive or encouraging way. I don't mean to say that if you've never played a monk you can't post because anyone can have good ideas, but let's try to be supportive about what we're adding here, please.

I appreciate your one post with suggestions for tasks and things to do, but to claim that something is frustrating for monks as a group when you haven't played one or polled them all, or that the "fun went out" seems a bit of a reach, especially when several people who do play monks have said they're not bothered by the playstyle.

This thread was started nearly four years after the guidelines were established and I've only seen one person who actually plays a monk complaining in the thread. I'm not sure what incited the original post by J and I'm not arguing the thread's existence as it's been highly constructive, but it's interesting to see that whoever these people are who seemed to have thought monks weren't fun anymore haven't seemed to be saying such here either to help the situation or explain their stance. It would be good to know what those players are finding to be an inhibition to their ability to enjoy their monks.

To address your concern from earlier about groups and loot - I personally don't get frustrated by a lack of "spoils" when playing either my monk or my templar. There is also nothing preventing Church PCs from accepting riln when grouping with others. It is an RP decision. If someone is adamant that my monk take payment, she does, and then donates it. It's not a big deal. If there's an event coming up, there are non-combat ways to obtain riln that my character might want to spend - again, not a big deal.

As for activity - I don't think that the changes caused most people to play monks less - at least that wasn't the experience or perception I had over time. When the guidelines were first posted there were some objections and certainly a very passionate series of discussions, but some people took it up as a challenge to RP within the guidelines, and still others were unaffected or even praised the clarity those guidelines offered. Most of the objections seemed to be fielded by non-monks.

Unfortunately we just happen to be in a period where the most prominent monk players from before have moved on, are playing other characters, or are more sporadically online, but that's okay. It's been years, after all. It's okay for someone to want to play a different character or do other things. Kent, Vitello, you've both played several different characters. You've both taken very extensive breaks in the past. Also, I believe someone stated earlier in the thread that monks are a luxury, not a necessity. This is true given how the game is currently set up, and that's not a bad thing, it just makes those monks that do show up even more special and appreciated.

I'll go ahead and explain in more detail why I no longer actively play my monk just to put it out there since I'm essentially asking others to do the same. There was a time when I played my monk quite extensively - probably daily for about a year or so and more afterwards off and on. During that time there were more active templar and it made sense to offer that support.

A few years ago I chose to play my templar over my monk. This was *not* because I found my monk boring or unfun, but because there were events going on that needed a templar more than a monk and other templar had mostly retired - by this I mean to say, events that required more active involvement rather than passive or conditional involvement in combat scenarios. Those events have died down recently due to staffing, but people now know my templar through those interactions. She has established relationships with characters that are current. My monk doesn't have those relationships and so I am less motivated to switch back to her more permanently even though I still log her in periodically.

I also don't want to get her too wrapped up in what events *are* going on since keeping things straight between multiple characters is hard enough without them both being involved in the same thing. And since I'm not alt-hopping multiple times a day like I was in the past and have far less time to play overall, my monk just isn't around as much.

I'm sure other players have similar experiences or reasons for not playing their monks or templar. And that's okay too. If you think about it, there are other classes under-represented in the population as well, but I don't see any complaints about those being missing or unfun.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's okay to not have an active monk online every minute, or even every day. That doesn't mean the guild is broken or unfun. It's just how things go sometimes.

I want to encourage people to keep posting suggestions for ways to help monks with things to do during their idle-time as I think those are really beneficial to the class and might encourage new players to try out the monastic order or old ones to give it another shot for a while. I would love for this thread to remain a place of constructive feedback and suggestions and not devolve into anything less. The guidelines for monks are strict, and they will only appeal to a select group of players to start with so the number of monks was always going to be limited. There is nothing wrong with that. So let's focus on making that group's experience as enjoyable, immersive, and fulfilling as it can be within those guidelines.

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Jaster
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Jaster » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:14 am

Fun fact: My first character accidentally became a monk. If I logged onto him today, it would be like starting a new character (who happens to already be a monk). You can basically thank him for the existence of Jaster.

I don't play him, because I don't like to play healers. I'm a "healer" in real life, and would prefer to take a break from that when I'm playing a game. Kent sees him, every day.

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Kent
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:50 pm

Kiyaani wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:10 am


Kent, I'm not sure what to say to you at this point. I just don't see the point in calling someone out for not playing when they're making positive contributions to the thread and working to solve the "problem". I also don't see why you revived the thread in that manner a month later without contributing any ideas of your own. You're heavily engaging in a thread that has nothing to do with your characters, and it's not in a very constructive or encouraging way. I don't mean to say that if you've never played a monk you can't post because anyone can have good ideas, but let's try to be supportive about what we're adding here, please.
Kiyaani,

The absence of monks has a great deal to do with my character. My character is frequently wounded and has to leave the field and go to an infirmary and wait for the bandages to work because a monk player character is seldom logged in.

A typical life cycle of a monk since they were forbidden to fight is or accumulate riln is thus: Spend a month or two making poultices to bandage PC's in hopes of being accepted by the Order. Maybe bank some riln while they can. Then, when they are accepted by the Order, do some minor healing on Infirmary NPC's as tasks, and on players in the Town Commons. Do this until reaching the coveted goal of Soul Beacon. When this is achieved, ask on ESP if anyone needs the services of a monk. When this offer is accepted by some warrior, travel with that warrior somewhere and heal when needed. After approximately 20 minutes of this (and of benefitting practically nothing therefrom), inform the warrior that they need to move on and wish the warrior well. Return to doing guild tasks where they seem to be getting more out of the tasks than of assisting the warriors. Maybe do some farming or somesuch, only to donate it or cook it and to benefit little to nothing therefrom. Repeat the above. After a month or two of repeating the above, the player either leaves CLOK or starts playing another character, only logging in with his monk perhaps once a week to check their mail. In the years I've played CLOK, I've seen more than one player play out the 'trying to RP his way into the Church' phase for a longer period of time than he stuck around afterward once he was admitted to the Order.



In response to the thread topic, Mercer made some suggestions of his own on which I did not comment. In response to my suggestion (yes, Kiyaani, I did contribute an idea of my own, not sure how you missed it), Mercer was not working to solve the problem. He only sought to stifle my idea, something which I did not do to his ideas.

I posted what I did precisely because Mercer targetted my idea and talked big about how he likes to RP a monk, those rare times he actually does so. I did not say he was not allowed to RP his monk that way ... he could decline 100% of the spoils if he wished... but instead of just doing that, he sniped at my comment.

To make it worse, he just isn't around playing a monk, yet he wants to shape how all monks should be role-played, because that's how *he* likes to play; knowing full well there are long gaps where no one wants to log in as a monk.

To me, his criticism of my suggestion is rather like writing to a newspaper discussion column to criticize publically what movies should be played at theatres, what the price should be, what way the concession stand should be operated, etc all the while having no intention of actually going to the movies any more frequently than about once a year even if all his suggestions were adopted by the theatre owners.
- Kent "Gunney" Gunderman


A dirty woodsman frowns at you and suggests you return after getting cleaned up.

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Kiyaani
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kiyaani » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:06 pm

I didn't miss your suggestion. I even mentioned it in the next paragraph. I'm sorry you missed that since I was actually supporting that you had posted one. What I meant by not having to do with your character is that because you're not the one experiencing or living through the guidelines, they don't affect you, but I'm pretty sure you already knew that.

All players have to deal with slow bandage times. That's just how it works. You either find one of the NPC monks, you find a PC monk, you get a quick-healing poultice, or you wait. Not all player characters even get that many options, so consider yourself lucky!

What you seem to be fixated on is not anything that hinders the ability to play the game, it just hinders efficiency. In the meantime, if there's not a monk around, it might be good to note that your character would require healing less if you would consider utilizing a different play style, but that's your choice. If you want to go around wearing minimal armor and fighting things that deal massive damage, then yes, you're going to potentially get injured and/or die more often than others who take a more practical approach. That will result in a lot more heal time. That's not a criticism by the way, just pointing out an observation.

Also, I see nothing wrong with anyone posting their opinions about what might make monks more fun, or whether or not they approve of the guidelines (though I doubt those are changing), or about the suggestions of others so long as they remain civil - whether they play a monk or not (oh, hey, that includes you!). That's what a discussion is.

The guidelines are what they are for lore reasons. Not everyone has to like them. Those who don't follow them have consequences, that's all there is to it. It was my impression that Mercer was not stifling your opinion, he was giving an alternate one, just as I have been.

I do agree that the initiation length can be frustrating, but it's also spelled out well in advance on the boards so people know what they're getting into. I'm not sure the length is why people stop playing monks, but rather other factors either IC (which we're trying to solve here) or OOC (which we can't really do anything to prevent). I would think they would stop playing prior to initiation if that was the core issue. However, the way you've presented your "life cycle" comes off a bit condescending as I'm pretty sure many of us understand what goes into playing a monk and that many monks are no longer playing. I do also find it a smidgen hyperbolic as I've known plenty of monks to play far longer than 2 months after initiation. I definitely get that you're passionate about this topic, but let's try to stick to the facts, please.

I also want to point out that there is a monk currently playing quite regularly. If they are not online when you are, that's not really their fault. But I would encourage you to try and meet them IC sometime if possible.

Remember that the game is full of combat-oriented characters. But it seems most of them don't have the same struggles with this that you do, or at least aren't stating them. Maybe you could ask a few of them about the strategies they use to avoid the long heal times. I would also suggest that if you want a potentially more immediate resolution to your specific plight, you might post something elsewhere about reviewing those bandage heal timers (I'm pretty sure from severe to none is over the 10 minute idle timer, for example) or the potential to purchase more quickly healing bandages at a far higher rate (so as not to compete with PC poultices). In-fact... I'm pretty sure that has been suggested before. So maybe you could find that post and bump it.
To me, his criticism of my suggestion is rather like writing to a newspaper discussion column to criticize publically what movies should be played at theatres, what the price should be, what way the concession stand should be operated, etc all the while having no intention of actually going to the movies any more frequently than about once a year even if all his suggestions were adopted by the theatre owners.
I really dislike analogies like this because they're rarely a good fit. All I'm getting from this is you saying that his opinions are invalid because he doesn't play his monk currently and may not intend to consistently. Does that mean your opinions are also invalid because you have never played a monk? He is still a player, after all. And his experience as a player is just as legitimate as your own, even when not playing his monk. (These questions are not meant to be answered by the way. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just want you to consider the appropriateness of such things.)

Anyway, can we please stay on topic from here out? Kent, if you want to keep this up, let's take it to PMs. I'm happy to keep discussing it with you as long as we keep this thread positive and on-point.

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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:54 am

I have been trying my best to keep this on-topic. To sum up:

The life cycle was intended to illustrate how uninteresting it is to play a monk. If it was interesting as Artisans, Thieves, Mercenaries, Elemancers etc., some people would stick with the monk characters they play as some other people stick to their Artisans, Thieves, Mercenaries, Elemancers.

Ok, there is one person actively and regularly playing a monk at the moment, after long gaps of monklessness. I think we all know it won't be long before we enter into another one of these gaps.

The RP into monkdom is for some people more interesting than actually being the monk, was my point there. People do indeed endure the longish RP into the Order, but what few to none do is stick around as a monk.

I entered my opinion as to how a monk would be more interesting to play if the monk could actually profit something by going into the field, only to have it attacked on the basis that it isn't the way he likes to RP a monk, if and when he ever did play a monk. I criticized this attack on my suggestion because it did not make monks more interesting to play to many, but it was merely a statement effectively meaning, "If other people aren't going to RP monks the way I want them RP'd, then it's best not to have monks".

No attempt was made that to propose that the current profitlessness of a monk's life is functioning as any sort of real attraction into playing a monk because I think we all know that profitlessness​ is something any character, monk or not, could RP if they wanted to; and no one has demonstrated that this is some kind of a real draw in to monkdom in particular...merely a hypothetical or ideological restriction best imposed on others rather than actually endured by oneself.

Which leads me back to my entire point, The numbers show that people don't want to play monks, or if they do start to play a monk, they discontinue because they in fact don't want to RP them that way (the profitless way).
- Kent "Gunney" Gunderman


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Re: Monks under review

Post by Jaster » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:06 pm

Kent wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:54 am
The numbers show that people don't want to play monks
I think this is the core of the issue, and that this can be extrapolated to many other games of various genres: The majority of players generally have less interest in playing healer characters than other arguably more interesting or subjectively fun archetypes. It has less to do with game mechanics and more to do with the players themselves.

I've outlined why I dislike playing healer characters before, but I imagine for a lot of other people its more along the lines of, "Why play a healer when I can play a demonic dual-sword ultrasonic ninja assassin and be a total badass?" And when you look at it that way, it simply makes sense. There is an attraction to combat-oriented characters that oft can't be beat, unfortunately for those who need a healer.

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Re: Monks under review

Post by Rias » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:28 pm

I always expected Monks to be a relatively less-attractive class to play. That was always part of the point. It's pretty rare to have people come into a game like this and say "I want to play a character that can't be a warrior and is discouraged from hoarding and outwardly displaying signs of wealth." I never saw monks as just another guild out there for whoever to join, with members in numbers similar to those of other guilds. If people aren't playing monks because they can't be warriors and can't amass wealth and show off their bling, I'm fine with monks not being played. They were always expected to be a rarity, as it takes a rare kind of person to willingly restrict themselves thus. The game could (and does) continue just fine without any PC monks around.

How about those suggestions to give monks more things to do in the game within their foundational lore guidelines, though? I think that kind of discussion would be a lot more fruitful than fighting to change the organization's core principles. Or has it been decided that there's literally no way to enjoy playing a character if they can't regularly engage personally in violent combat actions and/or focus specifically on building up piles of money?

P.S. I feel like some people think it's wrong for monks to accompany warriors for the purpose of healing said warriors. This is actually supposed to be a big benefit to monks - they can heal others as said others are engaged in combat, without needing to retreat or find a safe spot to bandage up. While monks shouldn't be constantly accompanying fighters that are going out and slaughtering sentient creatures, I don't see anything wrong with them regularly going out to keep the heals going on warriors combatting nethrim, or even infested to some degree. This probably shouldn't be -all- a monk ever does with their time, but I can easily imagine monks going out daily to help those that are fighting against the forces of uncompromising evil in the Lost Lands.

P.P.S. The previous P.S. does not mean monks should feel obligated to be servile healbots to anyone who asks. Monks are entitled to expect respectful and reasonable treatment just like anyone else.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Rosalin » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:29 am

I may sound pretentious here. I have read maybe half of the posts to get a good idea to the issues people have and while I have not played a Monk I think there is something that is being overlooked. My views of the world are indeed childish but, a Hero does deeds without expectation of rewards yes? I think that with all I've read that is the 'core' of being a Monk. Compassionate and Selfless. The reward is being a monk. You do not have the shiniest or flashiest things but, you don't need those. You may not have much riln but, everything you do benefits someone. Self sacrifice. What does a Monk need riln for though? More bandages, carrying riln not for the express use of your own but another. If someone truly needs an item it would be nice to be able to purchase that item and give it to someone.

Of course the restrictions make a Monk relatively unattractive to be but, that is because in reality do you think you could really be that selfless? Monks are people, they have desires and dreams but, you don't become a monk lightly. You're embracing a path that is curbed to helping others. Others are first, you are second. Perhaps that is why I think that the vying for extra rewards are strange. *I would like to think* that if I were a monk there are many RP ideas that come about to do with mundane tasks. Donate foods to kitchens, give bandages, do your best to make everyone live their life a little easier. That knowledge is reward. That you helped them. That takes a unique kind of person. For someone devoted to helping not just the commonplace (NPC) but, the uncommonplace (PC). This is a living world.

Would it be nice to receive more rewards? Absolutely. That people would give you a reward willingly however I think would put vastly more weight to it. It's a redundant statement now but, that's what I think the point is. You are doing everything without the expectation of reward. The act in itself is reward... I admit I'm a bit of a murder-hobo so being unable to enact violence is a great deterrent but, I have characters that I can sate such desires with. I used to play healers alot in MMOs, being a healer is rough. A tank need only keep attention, the DPS need only ensure they are attacking as fast and hard as possible but, the healer's role is far more delicate. If anyone in any role dies you are the first for the cutting block. When any of the other roles makes a mistake it will very soon become yours aswell if you cannot save them from their own follies.

Maybe what i say may not be heeded well as I have no experience as a Monk and I understand that. I cannot preach ideals that I have yet to follow as well. Though having played a Hillfolk that has come from the most simple of joys I do think that being able to wear more than robes would make me feel better about playing one. Of anything I could possibly object to it's not combat or lack of riln but, having something to look nice in. Perhaps that is indeed vain but, jewelry is for the rich. A comfy coat and well fit pants or even a linen sundress however I think is a nice peace of mind. How you feel inside should be outside. If I played a monk I believe I would wear clothes as I feel I'm contributing... Though I would begin hording clothes instead of riln if that were the case huh? Even the simplest changes to a formula can cause a butterfly effect of unintended side-effects. This is a serious matter.

I do not intend to undermine the genuine thoughts that have been provided thus far. I do feel that having more methods that are mechanical to assist people would benefit very greatly. For both monks and players.

To ensure I contribute here. I think that if whilst Monk's halos were drawn out, it acting as a deterrent from being attacked by tainted creatures/people would be fitting. If they get hit during combat while the halo is active then punishing the offending creature with a [Dazed] effect over dealing damage. Afterall a Monk has the most potent inner light. By product this could make Radiance stronger, dealing damage is a no-no that job is for templars. Causing debuffs however is not directly harm.

Apologies for not having many solid ideas to propose. I had these two pennies burning through my pocket and felt I should at least put them to use.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Rias » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:28 am

Regarding comments on clothes: Monks aren't required in any way to wear robes, though they're sort of the default identifying monk vestment. Monks are generally free to wear what they're comfortable wearing. The guideline simply states: "Keep your clothing and your equipment modest. Opt for utility over impressive luxury attire. Formal wear for special occasions is acceptable, but should be kept relatively modest rather than expensive and opulent."

In other words: Wear clothing you're comfortable with, just maybe resist getting those unneccesarily expensive buttons and cufflinks and jewelry. It's okay to want to look nice. The problem is when a monk wants to look opulent and convey a message of "Hey, look at me and how wealthy I am!" Really, just avoid gemstones, precious metals, and luxury textiles in your clothes and you're 97.4% there.

Feel free to have your monk gather a collection of different outfits they like. If someone ends up with an entire room dedicated to their fabulous fashion collection then yeah, maybe cut back a bit, but having a closet full of different outfits for differenet days,moods, and occasions is just fine. Again, just avoid the bling and gaudy attire/accessories.

From a different thread on the guidelines:
Modesty does not mean poverty. Attire can look nice and still be modest. What thaumaturges should avoid is foppish and gawdy attire. If it's loud and attention-grabbing and luxuriant and says "Look at me!" then it's not modest. You're fine wearing a nice black suit and bowtie to a formal event at Haiban. Just don't have solid gold buttons, ruby-studded cufflinks, glittery gemstones, etc.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Rias » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:28 am

Recap of suggestions to try and bring things back on track:

- Some kind of "Zen Dodge": Add a percentage of a monk's Thaumaturgy to their dodge rolls. Doesn't work on Tactics Offense. Extra effective when actively channeling thaumaturgy. This means Monks don't have to go out into constant conventional combat to train and be defensively viable in dangerous situations when assisting others.

- An ability to automatically start channeling thaumaturgy (if not already doing so) upon detected incoming attacks. This will allow for the increased Zen Dodge benefit and existing Flare defense. Requires Quichannel Master as a prerequisite?

- The Spirit Candles stuff I'd say I came up with in a drunken haze, were I a drinker. I still think it's a fun idea in retrospect, though. viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6750&start=25#p38232

- Some kind of targeted burst of light that stuns the target for a few seconds, helping disengage from combat or crowd control.

- Sanctuary spell to make a room safe from nethrim for a time.

- Tasks to go to find and aid a wounded traveler.

- Tasks to find a cursed item and remove its curse.

- Tasks to find and purge lesser hauntings (not swarming with nethrim like the Templar tasks of course)

- Tasks to accompany an NPC fighter against nethrim and keep them healed.

- Tasks to deliver food, clothes, blankets, and other basic needs goods to remote locations (relative to where the task is taken)

- Tasks to Soul Beacon an Undying NPC?

- Make Halo (and Radiance) have additional penalties to attacking nethrim (currently lowers incoming attack accuracy from nethrim). Perhaps harm or stun them? I'd say make this chance-based if it's going to stun, otherwise seems overpowered.

- Go further into the herbalism aspect and allow monks to craft some herbal brews and/or herb-infused foods that grant various small beneficial effects based on the herbs used.

- A spell/ritual that purges nether-plants and hauntings from a room. (Can be removed/reversed by counter-rituals). Maybe this should just be an aspect of the Sanctuary spell idea.

- The ability to "bless" (possibly using the Spirit Candles idea) weapons and/or armor for various benefits.

- A spell to place long-lasting light sources in an area? Could be an initial massive energy cost, and that energy is then very slowly over time spent to keep the light levels going for a long while before the spell runs out. Focused around an item? (Another possible application of the Spirit Candles) Monks could then be sought out for something as simple as helping normally-dark areas stay lit. Extremely mundane benefit/purpose, yet extremely useful. (There could be other spells/rituals to remove these)

==========

I invite those frequenting this thread to throw their own suggestions into the pot. And keep in mind the very first post in this thread by Jirato:
Jirato wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:00 pm
Note that the purpose of this thread is specifically about monk play style and potential changes/additions to make them more interesting to play, not to change/complain about the Thaumaturgy guidelines.
There's a lot of investment in this thread by multiple people. Let's put that effort into changes that Jirato & Co. will be receptive to, instead of what has been specifically stated will not be considered.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Jirato » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:04 pm

Thanks for the recap, Rias. TBH, I got a bit discouraged and haven't really been reading this with all the back and forth lately. I will be carefully considering the items in your recap list, a lot of them sound pretty cool to me and I appreciate everyone's contributions and suggestions on what can be added to give monks more to do without changing their fundamentals.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Rias » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:48 pm

P.S. My recap mostly included stuff I recalled off the top of my head (which was mostly my own stuff). If anyone suggested something I didn't mention, post it again so it's easily visible to Jirato.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:49 pm

Jaster wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:06 pm
Kent wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:54 am
The numbers show that people don't want to play monks
I've outlined why I dislike playing healer characters before, but I imagine for a lot of other people its more along the lines of, "Why play a healer when I can play a demonic dual-sword ultrasonic ninja assassin and be a total badass?" And when you look at it that way, it simply makes sense. There is an attraction to combat-oriented characters that oft can't be beat, unfortunately for those who need a healer.
Well, that's not entirely true, is it, Jaster? This game has almost always had a steady and reliable supply of artisans for the other players to benefit from, hasn't it? The artisans I know of do little to no combat in their day-to-day, maybe as an exception only. Certainly never coming near the Ninja you just described. What they do have going for them is profit.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Jaster » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:58 am

I thought it was obvious I was speaking in hyperbole and generalizing. My character also is not overly combat focused. The point was that people gravitate towards characters that they subjectively view as more desirable to play, and less people are attracted to the healer class than most others. I focus my play on stealth-oriented characters (often thieves and even at the expense of less combat ability) in practically every game I ever play with very few exceptions, whereas some prefer to focus on the crafting systems or combat or even being a healer. This is because that is what we enjoy, it says more about us and our preferences than the game itself.

Certainly, having good game mechanics may sway people into playing in ways that they typically would not and preferences can change over time, but GENERALLY this holds true under a vast majority of circumstances. And no, not entirely... that's the problem with generalizing.

Now as for the actual intent and purpose of what this thread has been hoping to accomplish, I think it probably goes without saying that my own personal opinion is that it's impossible to truly make monks (or "healers") more attractive in a game like CLOK without de-specializing guilds and allowing non-monks to pick up more healing abilities, and allowing monks to pick up more combat/crafting/stealth abilities. I would say that most of us (generalizing again), GMs and players combined, would be opposed to such a thing.

That is not to say that I do not support any of the aforementioned suggestions on how to help people find more enjoyment in playing monks. That would be a good thing, but I see it mostly only as something to benefit those who are already playing monks or those future players who would be attracted to playing a monk.

The real question is: Do you want to be an angelic demonic dual-sword hammer wielding ultrasonic subsonic ninja assassin thief monk healer master armorer and weapon smith trader? If not, then expect that monks will always be a niche.

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Re: Monks under review

Post by Sneaky » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:44 am

Just reposting this for easier review by J. If monks could some how enchant or infuse armor with light so that it eitehr had greater damage reduction value or automatic healing properties it would up their usefulness without actually having to be in the combat, which is a touchy area for most individuals. I know they already have something like this with spirit augmentation, but the duration doesn't last that long. Maybe even allow them to craft bobbles or carvings that players can invoke to have the spirit augmentation instead. I know I'd donate loads more riln if something of that nature were put in. Maybe even buy a few dozen horses for the church's stables.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Jirato » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:48 am

The idea behind spirit augmentation duration is to add a constant demand for monks rather than having a one time/short term use. I imagined people getting with a monk every hour or two, or even inviting them to go out hunting with them to keep augmentation running and heal on demand. I feel a long term enchantment or armor or an item that can apply the effect would go against what I was trying to achieve with spirit augmentation.
[GMCHAT Uyoku]: Octum is when the octumbunny comes around and lays pumpkins everywhere right?
[GMCHAT Rias]: Dimmes says "oh hai :) u need healz? ill get u dont worry thaum lasers pew pew pew lol"
[CHAT - GameMaster Rias would totally nuke Rooks]: Here's how elemancy works: The freeblegreeble and the zippoflasm have to be combined with the correct ration of himbleplimp, then you add the gargenheimer and adjust the froopulon for the pattern you want, apply some tarratarrtarr, yibble the wantaban, and let 'er rip!

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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:04 pm

Jaster wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:58 am
The point was that people gravitate towards characters that they subjectively view as more desirable to play, and less people are attracted to the healer class than most others.
Well, yes, they gravitate that direction. What I thought we were trying to address is why it is a regular occurrence in this MUD to have no active healers around, although in the other MUDs available that I've played, (at least ones with more than just 3 or 4 players logged in) you can always find a healer. We get it that you were talking in hyperbole when you talked about the super ninja, but your whole argument was that people will be heavily drawn to the warrior and that's why there's no monks usually, all the while dancing around the elephants in the room of Artisans and your own character's guild where they will never be the best warriors in the land and you admit it. I attempted to explain why I believed healers were uninteresting in this game to the point where it is the norm to have none logged in during the course of a year. Why is it in other MUDs, whereas healers are still less attractive, you can still find some, yet not here? The only proposals I get in a forward direction is to add some more powers to monks. I tend to like some of these ideas, yet the question remains, after people with monks try out these new powers for a few weeks, even if they are really cool and attractive new powers, will they continue on as monks or will they just go back to their other characters where they enjoy playing CLOK more, be it the high-end combatant or the Artisan or Thief that are still interesting enough to play?

I get it that there has to be some code of conduct in terms of Role Play, for example, we can't have a Templar who is a few riln short of buying a horse to type in Steal Crowd a couple of times to make up the shortfall to buy the horse, can we? No, we expect that Templar to go forage some herbs for 5 minutes instead, and then sell them and buy the horse; the stealing Templar to recieve some punishment.

What is my belief is that what was imposed upon monks went beyond a reasonable code of conduct to becoming an RP straightjacket. Sure, let some monks chose poverty, just as some non-monks choose to go rilnless and use commodities to barter with or some other players choose to avoid the ESP pendant. Maybe have different sub-orders within the church, some with a vow of poverty, some without. But to force it upon all, even to force it on oneself only to get tired of playing as a monk and switching over to an alt that makes money is why I believe we are in the state that we are.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Rias » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:38 pm

Suggestions within the parameters established by Jirato, though. Remember?

Suggestions would be super helpful.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:22 am

Rias wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:38 pm
Suggestions within the parameters established by Jirato, though. Remember?
My bad.
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