Monks under review

Humanitarians, healers and shepherds to the afflicted.
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Jirato
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Jirato » Wed May 29, 2019 6:20 pm

For the record, my first character in CLOK was a monk, and it is still probably what I'd consider my "main" character (has the most play time, etc). I do not enjoy playing that character anymore. It has nothing to do with the guidelines though. It has more to do with the way the vast majority of player characters are either lone wolves or parts of small cliques. Coming from the outside, in a role that is meant to support others, mostly just gets you ignored. Any announcements that you're available for healing over the ESP network is either ignored or met with hostility.

The last time I played, after doing guild tasks in solitude for a couple hours because no one was responding to my services on ESP, I spotted someone with light wounds in the same room, tried to engage conversation with them, and politely asked them if they wished to be healed, only to be informed OOCly on my GM persona by someone who probably didn't even know it was me that my character was being too pushy/aggressive. This is one of the reasons why I've probably played CLOK (As a PC) less than 5 hours total this year. It pretty much killed the entire experience for me.
[GMCHAT Uyoku]: Octum is when the octumbunny comes around and lays pumpkins everywhere right?
[GMCHAT Rias]: Dimmes says "oh hai :) u need healz? ill get u dont worry thaum lasers pew pew pew lol"
[CHAT - GameMaster Rias would totally nuke Rooks]: Here's how elemancy works: The freeblegreeble and the zippoflasm have to be combined with the correct ration of himbleplimp, then you add the gargenheimer and adjust the froopulon for the pattern you want, apply some tarratarrtarr, yibble the wantaban, and let 'er rip!

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Vitello
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Vitello » Wed May 29, 2019 6:28 pm

Rhoswen wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 5:59 pm
So gambling is an exception but not murder? And blunt weapons like staves, which are arguably torture, are preferable to sharp? These things don't diminish light?
It isn't murder or torture when it is a zombie/shade.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Vitello » Wed May 29, 2019 6:46 pm

Jirato wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 6:20 pm
This is one of the reasons why I've probably played CLOK (As a PC) less than 5 hours total this year. It pretty much killed the entire experience for me.
Dang dude, you need to have more fun on clok or staffing is going to burn you out.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kiyaani » Wed May 29, 2019 7:27 pm

I wasn't going to suggest Sunbeam, however, I could say you can rely on flares (the defensive ones), ask for help, or merely focus on healing the templar. As long as you're in position avoid and using tactics dodge, it shouldn't be too difficult to manage. If you are unable to search for the fallen because of a mob in the room, merely move to a different room and continue to search. There are RP solutions to this situation that don't involve combating nethrim directly. Once the templar NPC is healthy enough to stand, just keep healing them while they fight the nethrim for you. They use press to keep things off you and stick around until the task is finished. The zones these tasks fall in are not so dangerous as to pose a significant threat usually.

Sorry if that got overly technical or mechanical or should have been discussed IC. I can edit if that's the case.

If you're suggesting that the combat is necessary to enjoying the character or guild, then I would really go with Rias' suggestion and say you should probably go for templar instead. I appreciate the direct link to the trello though. I hadn't seen that card.

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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Wed May 29, 2019 8:05 pm

Rhoswen wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 5:59 pm
So gambling is an exception but not murder? And blunt weapons like staves, which are arguably torture, are preferable to sharp? These things don't diminish light?
When someone attacks you first, it is not murder to fight back; it is self-defence. What is murder is what those aggros do to people.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Wed May 29, 2019 8:10 pm

It's frustrating both for the monk and for the people who would like to have the monks teamed up with them that the monk can't participate in the spoils. This is why I suggested that monks be allowed to accept cash (for example, share command) and then donate half of their income to the donation box.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Wed May 29, 2019 8:16 pm

Jirato wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 6:20 pm

The last time I played, after doing guild tasks in solitude for a couple hours because no one was responding to my services on ESP, I spotted someone with light wounds in the same room, tried to engage conversation with them, and politely asked them if they wished to be healed, only to be informed OOCly on my GM persona by someone who probably didn't even know it was me that my character was being too pushy/aggressive.
There are times when complaints cross the line and are completely unjustified. Tell the person to walk away IC if they are so anti-social. Tell them that you have a log of interactions and that complaints are expected to be justified. A person complaining that a monk politely offered them healing (at no charge) is a toxic presence in an RP environment.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Rias » Wed May 29, 2019 8:17 pm

Brainstorm Prompt: What would be fun to do as a monk that doesn't specifically involve seeking out creatures to kill/destroy?
The lore compels me!

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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Wed May 29, 2019 8:21 pm

Rias wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 8:17 pm
Brainstorm Prompt: What would be fun to do as a monk that doesn't specifically involve seeking out creatures to kill/destroy?

brewing beer
cooking/baking -- then delivering food to orphanage as a task
finding herbs
growing herbs/vegetables
delivering scrolls

plus tasks they already have
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Alila » Wed May 29, 2019 8:31 pm

Rp, Always rp! :D
Does the church have any kind of official book? There is the one in the church in Shadgard, but what kinds of things would be written in it? Maybe monks and templars could read from it, or make up stories, or hymns. Anyone can do these, really--presumably thaumaturges are allowed to worship as can anyone?
This is not so much only for monks, but one of my favorite things to be able to do on a game, especially with one that is so steadfast about consequences and realism in a big open unforgiving land like Clok, is some kind of persistence. The Harbingers are a perfect example, with their spikes. Could we maybe have more things like this, please?
Thank you,
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Vitello » Wed May 29, 2019 8:59 pm

Need more hooks into rp. Monks can heal, spirit augment, and things have loosened up enough we can actually accompany adventurers. Yet none of that seems to be pulling people in.

We should also ask 'What would you interact with a monk over?'
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Rias » Wed May 29, 2019 9:49 pm

Vitello wrote:We should also ask 'What would you interact with a monk over?'
I agree, but let's also try to give monks things to do that don't require them to have someone else being there with them. They're supposed to be helpers and supporters for sure, but there are also plenty of times when everyone else is busy doing their own thing, or just not interested or around. I think one of the biggest monk issues is "what do I do with my time when nobody else is around?" Fighters can go out and fight endlessly-spawning mobs, crafters can go gather/craft their hearts out. Giving monks some of their own unique gathering/crafting options could be pretty cool. I know there are plenty of artisan characters that refrain from combat and seem to enjoy themselves well enough.

Here are some of my own ideas. They would require development work and are meant more as idea springboards that the CLOK coders might get some inspiration from, or that other players can formulate further ideas around.

- Go further into the herbalism aspect and allow monks to craft some herbal brews and/or herb-infused foods that grant various small beneficial effects based on the herbs used.

- I'm spitballing here: Spirit Candles. Yeah. You get a special candle from the monk shop, and get it powered up in various ways to build up its potency. These can then be used as components of sorts in greater rituals. Note: The Spirit Candles should lose potency over time, so they can't just be hoarded all at once and then used en masse/never need to be gathered again.
-- Pilgrimage Candle: You take it to various sites with a particular connection to Serafina's presence. Shadgard Sanctuary, Mistral Lake church, some other places I don't necessarily want to give away and will mention to the GMs if they're interested. In each one you perform some kind of ritual to increase its potency with the aid of Serafina's presence.
-- Unity Candle: You take it to various Monk NPCs around the world, and even other PC monks! to infuse it with some of their own unique thauma-power and increase its potency.
-- Uh ... some other method of producing a cool candle component that I'm too tired to think of right now. Anyone else have ideas?

- Some sort of ability/spell/ritual to "purge" a tainted room and prevent nether-plants from growing there. Requires some Spirit Candles! This would be mostly for RP, perhaps grant some guild points. I know I would do this like crazy on my monk. It could fade away over time and allow the spooky plants to grow again once its gone, or a sorcerer PC (or NPC if GMs want to do so) could come by to speed up the re-tainting process for their own nefarious reasons. In addition to monks being able to just do this wherever they want, there could also be tasks for doing it in specific places I suppose.

- Use the power of Spirit Candles to *temporarily* infuse items with low-level thauma-energy.
-- Weapons: Do a little Light damage to nethrim.
-- Armor: A small amount of nether damage resistance.
-- Bandages: Increased rate of wound healing.
-- Cloth-type clothing: Slow healing over time of minor wounds/scrapes on covered areas?
-- Drink/food: Give a little energy when consumed.
-- Water: Like above drink thing, and can also POUR it on a wound to heal it a little.
-- Rocks/stones: Creates a softly-glowing rock. TOSS it on the ground for it to shatter in a brief but bright flash of light that disorients everyone in the room and gives you a chance to escape melee without the melee-break-away check.
-- Use it on some sort of small wearable item to create a temporary wearable light source?

- Use the power of several (lots!) Spirit Candles (and maybe some other special components if we can come up with some) to imbue a minor thaumaturgic artifact. Plop the artifact down somewhere and it'll provide some effects to the room for, say, a week. Effects could include a small amount of lighting, preventing weaker nethrim from entering or nether-plants from spawning, and increasing energy regeneration rates to non-tainted characters/creatures a tiny bit. Sort of the anti-blood-totem. And most importantly, other PCs could destroy these if they wanted, just like placed blood totems or harbinger spikes.

- Some way for Monks to craft their own Spirit Candles from scratch! We can say that if you made one yourself, it's extra potent when you use it in your own rituals - as opposed to one purchased from the monk shop.

- Crowd control abilities that are particularly (or solely) useful against nethrim. This would make them have more to do on the occasions they join groups going out to fight.

- Task: Go to an area like the Templar haunting tasks, where an NPC Templar joins you and guards you. SEARCH each room to look for the source of the local haunting (some object similar to a blood totem), then thaumacast at it to purge it and clear the haunting from the area. All the while the NPC templar is attacking any shades and such that manfiest, and you keep the templar healed as they fight. Would be extra cool if some nethrim crowd-control monk ability were added: stun the nethrim so the templar can more easily handle them, or keep swarms under control by mesmerizing the extra nethrim while the templar NPC fights individuals one at a time.

All right, sleepy time for me, but those are some starter ideas. Feel free to add to them or dismiss them as silly or overly-complicated.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Vitello » Thu May 30, 2019 5:39 am

Those are interesting ideas, my concern though is they sound like code heavy projects during a staff drought.

More solo options isn't a bad thing, but I personally strongly feel there needs to be more to encourage 'community' and the party mentality, bring people together. True you can rp solo but the option to interact and react is nice.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Rias » Thu May 30, 2019 8:22 am

I agree, more community togetherness would be fantastic. Both that and the ability to enjoy the game when numbers are low and people are doing their own thing are important pieces to overall gameplay enjoyment. From my perspective, monks already have some very good stuff to bring to the table in groups when compared with any other character type (healing any wound, providing energy, providing warmth, a powerful defensive buff, resurrection should a group member die) so my suggestions at present are focusing more on things monks can do when they're on their own. That way they're encouraged to stay in-game and be actively doing things, and therefore be around and aware when others are looking for group activity. I look forward to seeing your own suggestions focusing more on the community togetherness angle. With our powers combined, we can make a difference.

That a lot of people seem to have prejudices against or otherwise avoid monks specifically is another ball of wax that probably needs some kind of addressing, but it's pretty difficult to get people to put aside prejudices.

I think it's safe to say that virtually any suggestion here is going to require codework. That staff is shorthanded at the moment doesn't mean we shouldn't put forward ideas, though. You might be surprised how quickly a coder can latch onto an idea that resonates with them, so I think it's better to put out as many ideas as possible rather than to hold back just because a suggestion requires code. I do intend to cheat by providing some CLOK-compatible code samples in order to back liked suggestions.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by preiman » Thu May 30, 2019 1:23 pm

This one might be a non starter but could monks get guild and recognition points for charitable donations? People really do like seeing those numbers go up and it would give a little more incentive to gather resources and work on solo projects. It might also make it a bit easier to give up the idea of accumulating wealth. It would even lend a hook to RP, church members could start gathering donations, maybe even get a task doing it. Just imagine what good could be done for the poor orphans and for the upkeep of the towns.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Nobody » Thu May 30, 2019 1:57 pm

preiman wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:23 pm
This one might be a non starter but could monks get guild and recognition points for charitable donations? People really do like seeing those numbers go up and it would give a little more incentive to gather resources and work on solo projects. It might also make it a bit easier to give up the idea of accumulating wealth. It would even lend a hook to RP, church members could start gathering donations, maybe even get a task doing it. Just imagine what good could be done for the poor orphans and for the upkeep of the towns.
I know you already get recognition points for donating riln. Also, I cannot speak for other monks, but I have more recognition points than I will ever use. They're helpful, and I'm going to keep using them, but I'm not running out anytime soon.

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Re: Monks under review

Post by Jirato » Thu May 30, 2019 2:25 pm

Nobody wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:57 pm
preiman wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:23 pm
This one might be a non starter but could monks get guild and recognition points for charitable donations? People really do like seeing those numbers go up and it would give a little more incentive to gather resources and work on solo projects. It might also make it a bit easier to give up the idea of accumulating wealth. It would even lend a hook to RP, church members could start gathering donations, maybe even get a task doing it. Just imagine what good could be done for the poor orphans and for the upkeep of the towns.
I know you already get recognition points for donating riln. Also, I cannot speak for other monks, but I have more recognition points than I will ever use. They're helpful, and I'm going to keep using them, but I'm not running out anytime soon.
Yup, already a thing, for riln, that is. That's intentionally added to give monks a reason to do trade type stuff as a hobby, get riln, and then donate it to the church so they don't have to feel guilty about accumulating wealth. I'd still avoid trades that focus purely on material possessions and appearance (Lapidary), but if you wish to pursue any other trade and want to get some guild points for it, just put the riln in the church donation box to convert it to GP.
[GMCHAT Uyoku]: Octum is when the octumbunny comes around and lays pumpkins everywhere right?
[GMCHAT Rias]: Dimmes says "oh hai :) u need healz? ill get u dont worry thaum lasers pew pew pew lol"
[CHAT - GameMaster Rias would totally nuke Rooks]: Here's how elemancy works: The freeblegreeble and the zippoflasm have to be combined with the correct ration of himbleplimp, then you add the gargenheimer and adjust the froopulon for the pattern you want, apply some tarratarrtarr, yibble the wantaban, and let 'er rip!

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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:54 am

The spirit candle thing seems "sort of" interesting, yet I would have to say it also seems a bit too satanic for the monks of this game.

The candles thing seems maybe in this universe to better suit Rooks, and/or perhaps that spider cult and the blood cult (either about which admittedly I know nothing about).
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Sneaky » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:49 pm

I really liked Rias' idea for imbuing weapons with light. To add to it, I would suggest enchanting as a guild specific trade for the monks. Sorta like spirit augmentation, monks can add the essence of certain immortals to weapons, clothing, or armor. The list of immortals and benefits could increase as their skill increases, and RP and lore could unlock new immortals as time goes on.
Some ideas for imbuing could be:
increased attack rolls,
increased armor rolls,
increased armor reduction,
decreased weight,
automatic healing flares,
increased balance,
decreased round times,
added flares,
increased accuracy,
increased parry rolls.
Enchanting weapons could require components specific to the enchantment, the thing that comes to mind are gemstones, since there was recently someone, I believe to be an elemancer talking about wanting to study them for properties. Weapons that get enchanted should have a chance to explode if improperly enchanted, or at least very severely damaged. I can see this giving blacksmiths something to do with those hords of daggers they have lying around. Anyhoo, just my take.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by Rias » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:55 pm

Today I learned that using candles as conduits for the Inner Light and Serafina's blessings is satanic.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by preiman » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:55 pm

That is an interesting way to look at things.
"I don't think we're ever going to find out what is going on with these canim, where are they coming from?!"
Kent arrives from the southeast.
Kent hugs you.
say um
You say, "Um."
a Mistral Lake sentry arrives from the east, armor clanking.
Kent heads north.

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Re: Monks under review

Post by Nobody » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:05 pm

Sneaky wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:49 pm
I really liked Rias' idea for imbuing weapons with light. To add to it, I would suggest enchanting as a guild specific trade for the monks. Sorta like spirit augmentation, monks can add the essence of certain immortals to weapons, clothing, or armor. The list of immortals and benefits could increase as their skill increases, and RP and lore could unlock new immortals as time goes on.
Some ideas for imbuing could be:
increased attack rolls,
increased armor rolls,
increased armor reduction,
decreased weight,
automatic healing flares,
increased balance,
decreased round times,
added flares,
increased accuracy,
increased parry rolls.
Enchanting weapons could require components specific to the enchantment, the thing that comes to mind are gemstones, since there was recently someone, I believe to be an elemancer talking about wanting to study them for properties. Weapons that get enchanted should have a chance to explode if improperly enchanted, or at least very severely damaged. I can see this giving blacksmiths something to do with those hords of daggers they have lying around. Anyhoo, just my take.
I like the idea of a temporary weapon buff that gives a melee weapon thaum flares or a ranged weapon a smaller thaum burst. Temporary means it isn't buy one and done (so people actually seek out monks) and also avoids the awkwardness of monks with a vow of poverty producing what would presently equate to legendary artifacts, which would make them extremely, awkwardly rich. For ease of mechanics, might make sense to be an imbue person rather than imbue object though since that one already exists.

Only reason I can think of that being a monk ability and not a templar one though is maybe it takes a lot of light to do (like soul beacon)?

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Re: Monks under review

Post by Kent » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:22 pm

Rias wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:55 pm
Today I learned that using candles as conduits for the Inner Light and Serafina's blessings is satanic.
Comparing apples and oranges. I was talking about the means used (the ritual item), and you switched it up to the ends desired.
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Re: Monks under review

Post by preiman » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:49 pm

So it’s candles that are satanic?
"I don't think we're ever going to find out what is going on with these canim, where are they coming from?!"
Kent arrives from the southeast.
Kent hugs you.
say um
You say, "Um."
a Mistral Lake sentry arrives from the east, armor clanking.
Kent heads north.

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Re: Monks under review

Post by Jirato » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:16 am

Let's not stray off topic here please.
[GMCHAT Uyoku]: Octum is when the octumbunny comes around and lays pumpkins everywhere right?
[GMCHAT Rias]: Dimmes says "oh hai :) u need healz? ill get u dont worry thaum lasers pew pew pew lol"
[CHAT - GameMaster Rias would totally nuke Rooks]: Here's how elemancy works: The freeblegreeble and the zippoflasm have to be combined with the correct ration of himbleplimp, then you add the gargenheimer and adjust the froopulon for the pattern you want, apply some tarratarrtarr, yibble the wantaban, and let 'er rip!

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