Cryomancy

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Cryomancy

Postby KianTheArcher » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:42 pm

I had a general idea for a change to cryomancy. Given that it's cold damage, how much of a stretch would it be for it to do pure energy/cold damage instead of physical damage like it does now? It could still cause more physical damage to a person when added to sorcery, but a raw cryomancy cast could simply sap a person of energy and not give them any physical wounds.
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Postby Isiaa » Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 pm

Would the intense cold produced by cryomancy not freeze blood and other bodily fluids within the body and cause frostbite? Plus touching cold stuff suddenly is somewhat painful. Not damagingly so but it would be perceived as physical damage on a low level no?

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Postby Acarin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:46 pm

Freezing organic material (in particular lipids and proteins) causes considerable damage. You can induce conformational changes inactivating proteins (just like with heat) and cold interferes with the fluidity of cellular membranes and can result in cellular rupture. In fact, freeze/thaw cycles are an extremely common laboratory practice for lysing cells.

You can get some pretty severe wounds from extreme cold. I've been burned by liquid nitrogen on several occassions so I know from personal experience.

If cryomancy did not cause wounds, it would be advised to remove them from pyromancy, aeromancy, and hydromancy as well, but this wouldn't make sense at all.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:04 pm

Looking at how limited the control over creating a cold, I doubt cryomancy has enough time to create frostbite with every raw cast. As for not causing physical damage but energy damage, hydromancy causes damage but is mostly energy damage from the fact you are choking to death and not as much physical damage of being splashed(compression pattern does not count as it removed the drowning aspect for increased physical damage). Cryomancy isn't anything physical to start with, unlike hydromancy's water.
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Postby KianTheArcher » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:04 pm

[quote=Isiaa]Would the intense cold produced by cryomancy not freeze blood and other bodily fluids within the body and cause frostbite? Plus touching cold stuff suddenly is somewhat painful. Not damagingly so but it would be perceived as physical damage on a low level no?[/quote]

It would depend, I suppose, on how cold cryomancy is exactly. It was mostly just an idle idea I had, based on a couple of factors on the MUD such as the cold damage from weather.
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Postby Acarin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:13 pm

[quote=Nootau]Looking at how limited the control over creating a cold, I doubt cryomancy has enough time to create frostbite with every raw cast. As for not causing physical damage but energy damage, hydromancy causes damage but is mostly energy damage from the fact you are choking to death and not as much physical damage of being splashed(compression pattern does not count as it removed the drowning aspect for increased physical damage). Cryomancy isn't anything physical to start with, unlike hydromancy's water.[/quote]

If I'm able to use cryomancy to instantly freeze a water elemental (considering the cold must be "distributed" over a large volume to actually freeze the whole thing), chances are that it's generating enough cold with each hit to actually cause some degree of frostbite.

Time is not really an issue in my mind. Cryomancy is around long enough to disperse heat from a target and cause severe cold. We know this already. What, in game or in lore, would lead you to draw the conclusion that it doesn't make contact with a target for a sufficient time period to cause frostbite? I've seen nothing.

Is pyromancy making contact for any longer? You neglected to address the difference between the two. Why should pyromancy (the best comparator) cause physical damage but not cryo?
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Orris » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:37 pm

I just tested to make sure, and steam and boiling water do heat damage, not fire damage, and that causes wounds. I think extreme cold is just as capable of ruining flesh and causing wounds as extreme heat. Cryomancy I assume is a lot colder than being covered in snow or ice or standing in a freezer.

Kian's idea could be the effect of a single cryomancy channel, and the second and third ones do actual physical damage. I think people would be upset about the nerf though.
Last edited by Orris on Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nootau » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:39 pm

I am glad you bring that up, If you can so easily instantly freeze a being of water you should be able to do the exact same to a human being from its high containment of fluid. Seeing as this would be terrible for balance purposes, I would elect cryomancy to lose that power over water elementals. Even extended duration of temperature below 0 degrees does not freeze all of water of most bodies of water but only the top layers. while water flows or sits freely under it.

As for why I don't think it is strong enough to cause frostbite is simple, it does not act like frostbite. Currently cryomancy acts like a burn from sever cold rather than destroying arteries as it doesn't give the body time to react as such(inpart why you can do a polar bear dive in the arctic can be fine if you dry off and get into a warm area soon after. Pyromancy, like fire, only need to contact the body for a moment to cause damage.

In addition, Clok's damage from being exposed to winter does energy damage not physical damage, while a out of control pyro shield does physical damage to multiple body parts. That is why I say that the two are very different.

[edit]
I forgot about heat damage. I'll need to roll up a pyromancer to unlock what most pyro abilities still do, it has been a while since I was able to use twin or triple pyromancy.
Last edited by Nootau on Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Acarin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:52 pm

[quote=Nootau]I am glad you bring that up, If you can so easily instantly freeze a being of water you should be able to do the exact same to a human being from its high containment of fluid. Seeing as this would be terrible for balance purposes, I would elect cryomancy to lose that power over water elementals. Even extended duration of temperature below 0 degrees does not freeze all of water of most bodies of water but only the top layers. while water flows or sits freely under it.

As for why I don't think it is strong enough to cause frostbite is simple, it does not act like frostbite. Currently cryomancy acts like a burn from sever cold rather than destroying arteries as it doesn't give the body time to react as such(inpart why you can do a polar bear dive in the arctic can be fine if you dry off and get into a warm area soon after. Pyromancy, like fire, only need to contact the body for a moment to cause damage.

In addition, Clok's damage from being exposed to winter does energy damage not physical damage, while a out of control pyro shield does physical damage to multiple body parts. That is why I say that the two are very different.[/quote]

Like I said before liquid nitrogen will cause very severe burns on contact very quickly. It's the same thing. Frostbite is the physical injury that comes with cold damage. It doesn't necessarily have to be slow.

Weather and an out of control fire shield are not the same thing. Not even close.

Elementals only freeze with 2 or 3 channels. This means that cryomancy is generating sufficient cold with these channels to do so. We can do some physical calculations if you really think it is necessary and find out how much energy is required to freeze a water elemental, but it would be based on a lot of assumptions. Remember, you have to hit them first. It's not at all imbalancing.

Cryomancy is a purely offensive channel that does not have the utility of other channels. It should do damage. Stop trolling for nerfs please.

Also, you are citing conditions with insufficient cold to cause rapid frostbite. It's not the same thing. Cryomancy is extreme cold. Not moderate cold.
Last edited by Acarin on Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:59 pm

As for living flesh being flash frozen by liquid nitrogen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjsMV1MglA4&feature=related

[quote=Acarin]Cryomancy is a purely offensive channel that does not have the utility of other channels. It should do damage. Stop trolling for nerfs please.[/quote]

Really now?

[quote=Rias]Cold damage now has a lower chance than other damage types of waking a target from sleep.

Cold damage now causes a drop in target temperature similar to cold weather effects.[/quote]
Last edited by Nootau on Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Orris » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:08 pm

You should also consider elementals are relatively small bodies of water, and I'm pretty sure they're in the shape of human bodies, so it's not very thick either. Cryomancy isn't freezing entire ponds or lakes or anything, I agree it would probably only make a chunk of ice on and near the surface where the projectile (for lack of a better term) struck.

And maybe more importantly, at the end of the day this is a game and we should be able to make a stretch for the Rule of Cool (no cryomancy pun intended). Not a huge stretch, we don't want things to get ridiculous, but freezing a water elemental solid with a cold spell is just awesome, and I don't think it's too unbelievable. After all you can use cryomancy to freeze people in a layer of ice if they're drenched. Realistically it seems absurd, you're not going to have a thick enough layer of water coating your entire body to freeze into a case of ice around you after being sprayed by water. But in this game it works as a fun and effective combo, and that too is awesome.
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Postby Acarin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:20 pm

[quote=Nootau]As for living flesh being flash frozen by liquid nitrogen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjsMV1MglA4&feature=related[/quote]

Burnt following sufficient contact, yes. Flash frozen, probably not (just due to volume).
And yes, liquid nitrogen does bead up and roll off hotter surfaces and yes, some time is required to either heat or cool something. I'm glad youtube has been educational for you.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:38 pm

So you now agree time is an issue?

Also, so you now agree that cryomancy is not purely offensive?
Last edited by Nootau on Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Acarin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:46 pm

[quote=Nootau]So you now agree time is an issue?

So you also now agree that cryomancy is not purely offensive?[/quote]

Cryomancy is purely offensive. I never said anything to the contrary.

No heat transfer is instantaneous. I never stated that it was. I stated that there is no information to suggest that the amount of time one is exposed to cryomancy is insufficient to cause physical damage/freezing and therefore it is not an issue. As Rias has stated that cryomancy rapidly disperses heat from an object, one can only assume that there is sufficient time (although there is a thread where we had difficulty determining what cryomancy actually is and how it works). Feel free to read it and catch up.

Cryomancy is also not a physical substance (as you have stated) capable of beading away as in your video.

Please adress my previous questions before you decide to argue further.
Last edited by Acarin on Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nootau » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:52 pm

[quote=Acarin]Cryomancy is purely offensive. I never said anything to the contrary.[/quote]

Rias has.


[quote=Acarin]Please adress my previous questions before you decide to argue further.[/quote]

Which questions did I not reply to? The idea that it doesn't make contact long enough to make frostbite? Maybe before it is never stated that it causes frost burn like damage even as a fatality but rather freezes something solid. If not this question, what other question?
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Postby Acarin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:58 pm

[quote=Nootau] Rias has. [/quote]
Where?


[quote=Nootau] If not this question, what other question?[/quote]
Not that question. That's not even a question and doesn't make sense. Why is pyromancy any different than cryomancy? Why should heat cause physical damage but not cold?

There were a few more questions as well (If you look back they have ? after them so you can easily identify them as a question in case you're confused about which ones).
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:17 pm

Pyromancy and Cryomancy are different in many ways. First, cryomancy is augmented by the area around it(splash and freeze), unlike pyromancy.

Pyromancy control fire, cryomancy does control or materialize a physical material.

Cryomancy has side effects that effect all targets(putting them to sleep), pyromancy does not.

Pyromancy has higher damage spans than cryomancy does.

Can you please describe how the two of them are similar?

[edit]
Also, for where Rias said otherwise, look at my post that quotes Rias. He said it in the changes area.
Last edited by Nootau on Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Acarin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:41 pm

[quote=Nootau]Pyromancy has higher damage spans than cryomancy does.[/quote]
I think pyromancy damage should be decreased because it would technically only be as damaging as cryomancy (should be same net damage) since they're not really all that different in the type of damage they do.

Also, what in your posts suggests that cryomancy has any utility functions? It's not in what you quoted.
Last edited by Acarin on Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nootau » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:46 pm

Cryomancy and Pyromancy does very different kinds of damage. One is fire one is a temperature. How are they similar?

Cryomancy's utility, as i quotes, is that it has a lower chance to wake a sleeping target, it lowers body temperature per attack(which will put a target to sleep), the Rooks have the ability to use it as a shield, they also have the ability to out right put a target to sleep. Pyromancy can only damage a target, even a Pyromancy based shield does not protect the caster, it only punished the attacker.
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Postby Acarin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:01 pm

[quote=Nootau]Cryomancy's utility, as i quotes, is that it has a lower chance to wake a sleeping target, it lowers body temperature per attack(which will put a target to sleep), the Rooks have the ability to use it as a shield, they also have the ability to out right put a target to sleep. Pyromancy can only damage a target, even a Pyromancy based shield does not protect the caster, it only punished the attacker.[/quote]

"per an attack" and you think it's utility not offensive? There's a difference between utility and not direct damage. I think we were talking about raw cast, but yes cryomancy AND sorcery together can be used defensively. Still not a utility. I would also not consider putting someone to sleep to be utility. It is an offensive ability (even if not directly damaging).

Pyromancy and Cryomancy both utilize changes in temperature to inflict damage. Direct damage from either causes burn wounds. What's hard to understand about this?

EDIT: Lets clarify. Do you have a youtube video explaining why fire burns you?
Last edited by Acarin on Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Landion » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:09 pm

Guys, this "debate" isn't going anywhere. Let's keep it civil.
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Postby Nootau » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:15 pm

Pyromancy does not create heat to damage a target, it creates a flame to burn a target. Cryomancy does not produce a liquid that freezes a target, not a mist to chill a target, it is a direct dispersion of heat from an area.

If you do not class those as utility, then okay. Pyromancy should do a lot more direct damage than Cyromancy because Cryomancy has several non direct damaging capabilities. Pyromancy can only do damage, it cannot defend. It cannot passively subdue a target.
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Postby hadesfire » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:18 pm

How do you throw heat dispersion? I always thought it was a complicated form of cold, able to push heat away from it's radius of effect. If i'm wrong, then the character should have to form it at the location of attack.

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Postby Acarin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:21 pm

[quote=hadesfire]How do you throw heat dispersion? I always thought it was a complicated form of cold, able to push heat away from it's radius of effect. If i'm wrong, then the character should have to form it at the location of attack.[/quote]

This had never been adequately explained. We had a conversation about something similar in April but never came to a conclusion. You can read about it in the Sorcery thread.
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Postby hadesfire » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:24 pm

Then wouldn't it make sense if Cryomancy created a ball of something like dry ice, but colder, it is EXTREMELY cold and has an aura of cold. If dry ice was able to push away heat, it would seem more like cryo to me.

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