Studying the Elements

The manipulation of fire, earth, air, and water.
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Studying the Elements

Postby Nootau » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:23 pm

What are good IC ways of furthering studies seeing as books currently are only good for up to journeyman studies?
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Postby Rias » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:26 pm

For the moment, just asking skill trainers.
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Postby Nootau » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:05 pm

Guess I'll have to change that up, won't I?
The elements are slaves to no being. One must learn to ask for their aid, the elements offer power to the humble. This is why no one is truly a master yet everyone is a student..
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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Nootau » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:30 pm

Seeing as studying the book are now not a possible way true pacifistic Elemancers can gain elemental skill, will a new way be offered or is Elemancy skill ranks orientated for violence rather than knowledge?

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Rias » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:17 pm

Nootau wrote:or is Elemancy skill ranks orientated for violence rather than knowledge?


You know well that I've already made it clear the University is not a combat school, nor do they have any significant focus specifically on combat applications. A non-combat alternative for skillups is still something we want, we just haven't come up with anything yet.
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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Aerotine » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:04 pm

Off the cuff -- Giving skill points for SURVEY in whatever your channeling when you complete the guild task and likely the same with Aero and Pyro when you guys figure out tasks for that.

I would also say something along the lines of maybe doing it like channeling where you gain skill super slowly if you're channeling the energy BUT I think I know how you feel about that.

Otherwise, some way to do experiments and the like given the different elements. I'll try to brainstorm tomorrow and see if I come up with anything.

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Nootau » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:38 am

Rias wrote:You know well that I've already made it clear the University is not a combat school, nor do they have any significant focus specifically on combat applications. A non-combat alternative for skillups is still something we want, we just haven't come up with anything yet.
Will you return the books to be a way of doing such, bypassing the normal training limit of needing to work off stills but at a extended timer needing to be waited out? Could you return the skill gains from Elemental Severance(tested it a few months ago and found they no longer gave gains even used)? Possibly the concept of timed lectures that are held at regular times and would give skill gains to that element depending on the speaker?

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Lysse » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:57 pm

I both like and dislike the idea of Elemancers being able to increase Elemancy skill through non-combat means. I understand it's a difficult thing to balance, but I like the idea of being able to gain elemancy through lectures and even textbooks (though I do think there should be a severe limit to it).

I also think a good way to balance this out would be to remove Guild Point gain from casting spells at targets once tasks are coded in for Pyromancy and Aeromancy.


*Edited to add*

As a bit of afterthought, I don't think it's a good idea to give ANY magic skill outside of channeling the capability of increasing purely through holding a channel open. Regardless of how small the gain is, it would only lead to Elemancers going into their dorm rooms and channeling for hours on end.

Also, if there is a way to gain Elemancy skill added in that does not require combat, it might be appropriate to lower the skillgain of Elemancy through combat just as a balancing factor. Perhaps also add on diminishing returns to Book Learning Elemancy; as in, the higher your elemancy is, the lower your chance for actually receiving a gain is past a certain threshhold. And possibly add in a caveat of, the more time you spend gaining Elemancy skills practically (between study sessions), the better chance you have of learning something when you attend an actual lecture session.

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Rias » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:09 pm

We won't be tying it to channeling or simply asking for training/studying a book, because many people will most assuredly log in and script doing these things over and over in their dorm rooms or somewhere else away from any possible disturbance.

Keep the ideas coming. They should require some kind of effort and/or risk, be it physical danger, monetary/component-consumption, required travel, or otherwise.
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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Nootau » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:21 pm

It sounds like you are describing the current tasks for Elemancers. Why not either have them have gains depending on the task or have in the shop 'Personal notes' which are a GP+Riln item which will give a point or two in a the desired element, this will only be good for one use and will have to buy more to continue as such.

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Rias » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:51 pm

There won't be gains for survey tasks until there are pyro and aero tasks.

Personal notes' which are a GP+Riln item which will give a point or two in a the desired element, this will only be good for one use and will have to buy more to continue as such


It should involve more than "buy item X," and I prefer to require variety when there's a lack of something risky like combat challenge. My primary idea right now is simply more guild tasks which will result in some gains.
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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Lysse » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:56 pm

Based on your input Rias, I have two rough ideas that might be doable for Elemancers.

Lectures
The first is a return to the Lecture idea Nootau posted. Even though you've said you're against an easily scriptable thing like lectures, I think it could be made to potentially work. The first of these would be to require an entrance fee to get into the lecture. Make it fairly hefty, but not so bad that it's impossible. Secondly, only have the Lectures occur at specific times. Perhaps two chances each week for each Elemancy lecture. Thirdly, only allow a person to benefit from one lecture per week. This would give the College an actual college feel I think, beyond the purchaseable textbooks and tuition. This still might be considered too 'easy' to script, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

Elemancer Labs
The second idea is labwork. This is something else to give the Elemancers a more academic skill. Labs would also require an entrance fee (not as high as the Lecture fee), and also require an added 'reagent'. There would be a Lab for each Elemancy, and each week it would require a different special component, each component differing for each individual Element lab. Some weeks, the component could simply be purchased from the College store for a decent price (thus raising the overall cost of the lab a bit more than a lecture). Other weeks, it would require a component that would be obtained from a dangerous location. Labs could only (like lectures) be done a certain amount of times per week. Once per week seems fair, but it also seems like they could be doable more than once because of the next portion of this idea. Labs should still only be doable once a day at most, if they can be done more than once per week. Perhaps if this is the case, have the labs happen several times per day, to allow for more people on different RL time schedules chances to attend.

Whenever an Elemancer attends a Lab, they have a skill check performed based on the relevant Elemancy skill. If they fail, they still gain some (but less) skill, however Bad Things occur. They take damage relevant to their Elemancy skill used. On a successful skill check, they simply gain skill in the relevant elemancy. This could even require the Elemancy to actively channel an element and 'cast' it at the component required.

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby TwistedAkai » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:17 pm

I like the idea of labs, if only for the risk of blowing up said labs. I swear I didn't mean to light Professor McBundletruss on fire!
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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Aerotine » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:13 pm

I like the idea of labs as well, I don't think there should be a course cost over general tuition we already pay but I would not be opposed to a cost for reagents or having to gather some in advance. I don't think once a week would be enough and don't really like the idea that you HAVE to log in a certain time every week to get that class. A daily class you could attend with maybe four different sessions per day could be manageable. This would allow for decent skill gains once a day and also help people in different time zones still be able to make classes.

It could be really cool to have a chalk board outside of the lab room with the required components for that day listed on it. You go out, gather or purchase the reagents, or retrieve them from your dorm room, and bring them to class, along with whatever the applicable text book for what element you want to study that day.

I would help design this room and it could easily be added to or replace one of the rooms in the University that is largely un-functional. I would design it to have multiple desks so that you can have a multiple Elemancers in given classes which would promote RP during the classes that would be able to extend into other areas of the game from the familiarity. Just off the top of my head, I see Reagent Gathering Parties springing up.

Finally, you better be getting a pretty hefty skill gain per session for that to be feasible, at least on par with what someone who does practice in combat would be gaining if they're supposed to get the entirety of their skill gains from this "academic" approach. Perhaps it would be like channeling but ONLY within the lab during the labwork phase to where it ticks by so long as you are channeling the element you are supposed to be working with and you have the necessary quantities of reagents.

That just lead me to another task...the elemancers don't have a gathering task yet...so every day, they could be given a gathering task for the components of that days labwork. If you don't want to attend the lab that day, you could sell your supplies to someone else but still get your skill gains/guild points for doing the gathering task.

Hmmm...I like where this is headed. I hope you do too.

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Lysse » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:16 pm

Bye once a week, I mean an Elemancer is eligible to attend once a week. No that the actual class would occur once a week.
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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Aerotine » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:22 am

That's cool, but either way, if once a week was the case, that would have to be a hell of a skill gain, at least on par with what an elemancer practicing in combat could attain during the week...and it would have to be in one session.

I love the ideas you came up with before but I think it's very plausable to have multiple classes during the week and advantageous for Devs to add in tasks they've already coded for other guilds into the university, like the gather reagents, and have the used in the classes.

Or it could all be done on an individual basis. Oliva says, "Go get these reagents from the wilds or the university store, and take them to (one of the four elemental trainers in the university) and they will give you lab work. Complete it and return to them for approval." When you return to said trainer and had them your completed labwork, they nod off on your work, you take it to a taskmaster, who gives you guild points, riln and acknowledges the skill you gained in your chosen element. (Or the skill gains can still be received in the lab...that you can only enter with this specific task if the increases are like channeling but only in that area)

I see this as being one method, perhaps an easier method to code, than the classes.
However, I love the RP that could happen between the classes and all the elemancers you could meet during those classes that happen a couple times a day. Reagent parties, study session, keggers, etc.

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Lysse » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:38 am

My 'once a week' caveat was also directed primarily at simple Lectures, versus lab work. The reason being, there is zero risk in a lecture. That is also why I suggested adding on a hefty riln cost to simple lectures.


I'm very much a proponent of multiple labs a week. However, the risk is much less inherently than simple combat. It's in a controlled environment, and unless the lab has a chance to one shot kill you, the risk is minimal. If this were the case, then I believe that the labs being done every day would be too easy a way to grind elemancy. Being able to do a lab 3 or 4 times a week seems like it would be fair.

Non-combat ways to gain elemancy should never be on par with combat gains to elemancy, simply because combat is more of a risk. Clok isn't necessarily a game of symmetry, and just because there ARE alternative avenues does not mean that each alternate avenue must be equal to the others. An Elemancer will learn more about manipulating their elemancy in the field under strenuous conditions, than in a lab.

The lab idea I posted is meant to be a bonus, or a way for more peaceful Elemancer to gain skills, which currently is not an option. An Elemancer that goes out into the field and expends the same effort as an Elemancer who sticks to the labs and lectures would most likely be more capable than the pure lab/lecture Elemancer.
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"You mean I could choose certain death?"
"A choice nevertheless, or perhaps an alternative. You see I believe in freedom. Not many people do, although they will of course protest otherwise. And no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based.”

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Aerotine » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:14 pm

Yeah, I'm down with all of that except I don't see why they shouldn't be able to attend labs/class everyday. You can go out and hunt every day.

I do agree that a non-combat elemancer would not be on par with a combat tested one. This is another area where what I suggested about the gathering of reagents (which might only be gained through combat/or bought from someone who had the combat scenario).

Perhaps lab study might be a way that you could create a multiplier so that you would still need "some" combat but might need less than a pure combat Elem, making your character more "academic", although that doesn't fully solve the problem of the pacifist Elem.

Finally, I don't see why lab work couldn't cause wounds. Certainly you could get cuts and scrapes, or worse, while working with fire or any other injuries one might sustain in a lab, from boiling items to glass shards or what not. A "one shot kill" might be aggressive -- but certainly someone more on par with a tree falling on you as per Logging.

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Acarin » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:20 pm

I still don't understand this at all, honestly. Why would a non-combat Elemancer care what his elemancy skills are at? Elemancy skills really only impact combat accuracy unless I'm missing something here. Why would there be a non-combat means for acquiring combat spell accuracy?

The concept of a non-combat elemancer seems a little strange to me... it's honestly about the same as a non-combat mercenary to me.

The only guilds that are truly geared towards non-combat are mummers, traders and monks. While other guilds have utility abilities and may have skills that can be used outside of combat, I would still consider them combat oriented.

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Nootau » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:50 pm

Acarin wrote:I would still consider them combat oriented.

You may Acarin, Rias has said otherwise. Maybe you can change Rias's mind, I could not.

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Re: Studying the Elements

Postby Lysse » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:57 pm

From a purely mechanical standpoint, the Elemancy skills do two things that I'm aware of. They determine (alongside Marksmanship) the accuracy of a spell, and they allow you to unlock further abilities that give you more powerful magic. So from a mechanical standpoint, a more peaceful Elemancer would want to be able to further their skills in order to gain access to the upper tiers.


However, this is a roleplay enforced MUD. So skills should be looked at as something other than a shiny number that has a function. If we look at the various Elemancy skills, we can see a pattern of "Blank is the ability to channel and manipulate the raw element of X", where blank is the skill and X is the corresponding element. So according to the skill, the higher it is, the better an Elemancer is at manipulating their corresponding Element. This would aid them in their research of "how they [the elements] constitute and affect our world as well as striving to learn how to manipulate the elements according to their will", which is the primary goal of the guild. They are a scholarly guild. Not every guild needs to necessarily be full of Murder-Hobos, even if it is made a valid choice for skill progression.

An Elemancer might have every reason in the world to want to be less combat oriented, but still gain in the Elemancy skill. It aids in their understanding and research regarding the various Elemancies. It's important that people remember the skills aren't just mechanical tools to meet and end on the MUD, but many of them (magic specifically) have a lot to do with roleplaying and character concept.
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"A choice nevertheless, or perhaps an alternative. You see I believe in freedom. Not many people do, although they will of course protest otherwise. And no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based.”

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