Frustration.

The agent branch of Tse Gaiyan.
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Frustration.

Postby Lae » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:37 pm

Well today I decided to try something new..

I rolled up a Utasa. Well I trooped up to the Compound to figure out what was what. My first concern is that the only ability that I could train is in apprentice wavebending. That's not all that bad. I figured that we would at least have the option of having basic training first. So here I am with one point in wavebending and no weapon skills. I can try to make the best of that, I guess.

I have 200 riln, I go to talk to Lucas, I figure if I do some tasks - maybe I can make some riln and train up some skills since all I have are...1 point in wavebending.

Well Lucas is having a bad day or he doesn't like me because he's sending me after infested hounds. I tried to kill a carrier and pretty much got my butt handed to me, I'm pretty sure a hound is a bit beyond me at the moment.

Is it intended that we can't get access to basic training until AFTER we have apprentice wavebending? I mean, sending someone out into the dark with one rank in one skill seems a bit harsh.

Is Utasa hard mode for CLOK?
Last edited by Lae on Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rias » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:05 pm

I'm not sure why Apprentice Wavebending is a prerequisite for Basic Training. I'll ask Rithiel.
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Postby Lae » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:15 pm

Can you also hit her up and find out why we can't have maybe 10 ranks of wavebending with the apprentice rank, I mean, it's not like we have enough channeling to actually keep up more than one channel for longer than it takes to actually off a carrier.
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[FROM Rias (OOC)]: Jaster can now pick the lock on your bathroom door. I don't want any more details on that bug report.
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Postby Nootau » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:50 pm

I just made a Utasa as well.. Why are the Tasks only hound missions and not offer any carrier missions?
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Postby Reynard » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:02 am

My guess is that Basic Training gives you Wavebending. Ask the guildmaster for an ability description. Oh, and train on the dummy a bit and get some basic leather armor. Helps a LOT.

I'm going to be straight with the development team on this. If it's nearly impossible to play an Utasa agent, then people are going to have even more trouble playing without being in a guild.
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Postby Lae » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:41 am

[quote=Reynard]My guess is that Basic Training gives you Wavebending. Ask the guildmaster for an ability description. Oh, and train on the dummy a bit and get some basic leather armor. Helps a LOT.

I'm going to be straight with the development team on this. If it's nearly impossible to play an Utasa agent, then people are going to have even more trouble playing without being in a guild.[/quote]


It does help a lot, but having no basic skills and ONE rank of wavebending doesn't do much for anyone. I don't care WHO you are, and looking over basic training you still don't get a weapon skill.

This Basic Training skill-set is available to Tse Gaiyan members in the Utasa branch.

It provides an instant boost of 50 to Perception and Stealth, 25 to Locksmithing and Herbalism, and 10 to Two-weapon combat, Marksmanship, Hurl Weapon, Climbing, and Wavebending.


You get a lot of things to HELP you with weapons, but you don't outright get a skill. Is this intended?
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[FROM Rias (OOC)]: Jaster can now pick the lock on your bathroom door. I don't want any more details on that bug report.
You ask, "Are we there yet?"
Bryce angrily says, "I will turn this horse RIGHT AROUND."
Speaking to you, Jaster exclaims, "Compassion, Sister Lae!"

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Postby Utasa Agent 0102 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:23 am

I went through the same troubles when i first made my Agent. To over come the problem I spent a lot of time getting to know our animated training dummy. I find it weird that out core skills are perception and stealth. Perception I can understand as we like to look for infested activity going on in town. Stealth, so far, for agents is only to sneak around and observe. We can't re-hide after a stealth attack like thieves or assassins but we can use stealth for our first strike. I would love to see the Utasa also specialize in firearms as they are small, concealable and would allow us to snipe a round or two before we are discovered. Other than that Utasa primarily seem to be set up to use rapiers. You can buy a nice custom one in the Agent only store.

On that note, I could totally see two Agents have a gentlemanly duel with a pair of dueling pistols.
Last edited by Utasa Agent 0102 on Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Reynard » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:50 am

[quote=Utasa Agent 0102]I would love to see the Utasa also specialize in firearms as they are small, concealable and would allow us to snipe a round or two before we are discovered.[/quote]
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Postby Nootau » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:19 am

The training outpost for the Utasa already aids in training perception so that is not needed.. I suggest changing 'Basic Training' to the following:
+50 Armor Use, Stealth
+25 Melee, Marksmanship
+10 Daggers, Dodge, Firearms, Lock-smith, Swords

Prerequisites
NONE
Last edited by Nootau on Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rias » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:48 am

Playing a Utasa (or guildless) isn't "nearly impossible" by any means. For a long time, there was no basic training that gave combat skills for any guild - thieves were the only ones who had it, the only combat aspect of theirs being stealth, which is useful in combat but not a straight-up combat skill. Heck, Dwaedn Wyr and Knights Templar don't have any basic training or starting combat skill boosts, and they're meant to be purely combat-oriented guilds.

People seem to be making the mistake of assuming that because some guilds start off with an easier time in combat that other guilds which start out tougher are broken. Instead of assuming you should be entitled to become instantly combat-proficient upon joining a guild, I suggest you start off as many have done - mess with the training warrior or infested carriers (or scarecrows farrmers, if you want to risk making certain people angry by hunting them). All have 0 combat skills and weak attacks (wooden training swords, barehanded punches, farming tools).

Guilds aren't meant to make you instantly proficient in anything, but to help you hone your skills and give you abilities that focus in particular areas or styles for those guilds. Those that start with some combat skills from Basic Training aren't more powerful or more viable somehow, they're just able to start fighting slightly tougher creatures more quickly. Some even complain that Basic Training abilities are a waste of an ability point, because all they do is give you skill points which anyone could just go and get on their own anyway. This is a big reason why I haven't added them for Dwaedn Wyr or Knights Templar - they get a lot of cool abilities, and I wouldn't want to require them to spend their first point on something as bland and mundane as "+X to skill Y" - something I've always thought was very boring. I gave Basic Training to thieves (back when there was no Basic Training concept) to make it possible for them to pick locks without breaking a lockpick a minute, and the other skill boosts were just gravy to make it less of a wast of an ability point in my mind.

Anyway, I'm bringing this to Rithiel's attention, but she set up Basic Training for what she, the Tse Gaiyan creator and guru, thought was appropriate for the Utasa. The Apprentice Wavebending ability should be considered what's giving you access to use wavebending at all, just like the Elemancers need to use an ability point to for apprentice training in each element before they can channel them (and also gives them only one point). Well worth an ability point to get the benefits from raw wavebending (flashbang as well as the extra dodge chance), let alone all the future abilities it will unlock that require wavebending. That you start out with only 1 point in it isn't some slight or rip-off. You've unlocked an entire magic school, now you need to go out and practice it to develop the skill, just like everything else in the game.
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Postby Acarin » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:04 am

Well said Rias!
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Postby Rias » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:14 am

By the way, if you want to break combat and hide again for another stealth attack, use flashbang (raw wavebending cast), which will mesmerize the target and break combat engagement with them, as well as prevent them from acting until they're shaken out of the stupor or it wears off. It's really quite effective.

From what I understand, Rithiel intended for Utasa to initialize combat via stealth, following up with open combat aided by quickness and illusions, rather than being purely stealth-oriented combatants. That doesn't mean you can't choose to completely rely on stealth if you want, though.
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Postby Rias » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:20 am

I thought I'd mention that I agree with everyone who thinks Utasa need some love. They definitely do. They're probably the least-developed guild publicly available, despite being one of the first ones put in. I just don't agree with some of the sentiments in this thread.
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Postby KianTheArcher » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:51 am

Well, there's also the fact that you get sent to go kill Infested Hounds as an Utasa, which are not easy by any means because of their ability to sniff out hidden people, and how hard it is to blind them to hide again (at least using dirt kick).
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Postby Rias » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:20 am

That would be a general issue with the task system calculating critter challenge. It should be fixed now. Again.
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Postby Nootau » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:24 am

I was thinking that the 'Basic Training' was something for you to gain near or at character generation within a Guild to allow you to skip staying inside and training for hours as well as display what abilities are important for your Guild.
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Postby Landion » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:38 am

Nootau, since the time you were at that level, carriers and the graveyard rats and ravens have been made a LOT easier.

Nobody should ever need to stay 'inside' for hours hacking on a training dummy. Even someone who doesn't join a guild can go out and fight the easier stuff. The basic training stuff isn't even necessary. It's a perk for some guilds.

The mistake I see most newbies make is not getting any sort of armor, and then getting torn apart by otherwise weak attacks.

Also, what Rias said.
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Postby Lae » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:42 am

I was looking at the whole thing from a newbie standpoint. Had Utasa (and after reading the material - it was) been the first place I visited when I originally joined the game and I had joined - I probably wouldn't still be around. I'm not saying that everything should be super easy but it seemed like I was pretty much resigned to staring at a training dummy or cocky warrior for a few hours just so I could do a hound task. I like a challenge, but starting out as a Utasa agent wasn't challenging, it was downright frustrating. So don't take my posts as a "Oh my goodness this totally sucks, fix it!" because it's more of a "Is this really what I have to go through to be a creepy person listening to peoples whispers?!"

I would just like us to gain at least one weapon skill so that when a newbie wanders into the guild hall and joins they're not stuck in animated dummy-land until they want to flee into the oblivion.
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[FROM Rias (OOC)]: Jaster can now pick the lock on your bathroom door. I don't want any more details on that bug report.
You ask, "Are we there yet?"
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Postby Rias » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:36 am

The task bug assigning hounds but not carriers (or now the infested merchants up north) was fixed.

There's absolutely no reason to stay around and attack animated dummies (which will all be removed eventually), unless people somehow feel entitled to grind 50 points at no risk whatsoever. You can go fight carriers, infested merchants, training warriors, rotting rats and ravens, scarecrow farmers, or mournful shades (which can't even hurt you, as a matter of fact, though they're annoying). They all have no skill and weak attacks (or none at all, in the case of shades). There are plenty of options there.

"Having" to fight carriers as a newbie with 0 combat skill is no different than having to fight laborers or poachers as you gain more skill to match theirs, except that the carriers are easier because they only swing their bare fists.
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Postby Rias » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:43 am

I'll also mention again that this isn't a unique Utasa thing. Most guilds don't start you off with insta-combat-capability. You have you fight your way up from square one. This includes combat-oriented guilds, like Dwaedn Wyr, Knights Templar, and Claw of Shar. Sorcerers and Elemancers don't get any instant boost to their magical skills (which equate to their version of combat skills) either. They also start out at 0 or 1 skill, and have to work their way up. So Utasa aren't in some kind of situation where they get the short end of the stick combat-wise starting out.
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Postby Arphaxad » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:31 pm

When I started out combat was pretty difficult. I focused on earning some riln so I could get training and work with the practice dummies. Wearing armor is huge when starting out. I made that mistake. It seemed like certain parts of my body were getting injured so those were the pieces of armor I bought first. It really doesn't take long to get your combat skills to a point where you can hold your own in the starting areas. The starting guide on the wiki was a great help too. Having a profession that could provide riln allowed me to train the skills I needed (even with a few mistakes) and buy supporting equipment.

Wanted to add that when I started we didn't have tasks (or I didn't know about them). I'd be careful about jumping into tasks right off. Choose them wisely, I don't think the system is set up to give you a task on par with your abilities. You can always remove the difficult task and try for one that may be easier.

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Postby KianTheArcher » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:56 pm

I think one of the things that makes Utasa more of a pain is the fact that they're more of a 'combination class' than the other guilds. Same with Udemi. Instead of being a more straightforward role (like combat, magic, stealthy, healer, tank, etc.). I'd imagine Claw of Shar to be difficult to start out as, as well, or monk if you wanted to be more combat oriented. Udemi was, in my opinion when I first started it, incredibly difficult to start with. But it was also when I first started playing, which was like in august/september of last year.
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Postby Reynard » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:50 pm

It was pretty hard for me to get rolling, but once I did it was okay. That and the requisites for a very important ability for archers (Guerilla Tactics) are too high to get when you join.
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Postby Nootau » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:47 am

Utasa don't have 'Guerilla Tactics'. Also the Wiku says it doesn't have prerequisites.
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Postby Rithiel » Fri May 25, 2012 12:33 pm

Just saw this thread. While some of the problems have been fixed (tasks), I'll admit that the direction that I envision Utasa combat going isn't entirely clear (or rather, its clear, but some of them are not really feasible), so I'll be taking a look at it.
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