Additional Stealth Abilities

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Additional Stealth Abilities

Postby Nootau » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:00 pm

Will there be abilities for Utasa similar to 'Shadow Strike' that the Claw of Shar and the Thieves guild, as they are also Stealth classes?

I would also like to barrow the Claw of Shar's ability of 'Shadow Step' as it is illusion based, something that the Utasa should specialize in, using tricks to control the battle field.

Seeing as Utasa control light and light levels, is it possible to gain an ability of 'low light vision'? This ability would increase the room's vision levels but just for the Utasa, not anyone else who is joined to the Agent, this would not be as powerful as 'Nether Vision' of the Rook Parlor or the Claw of Shar, but also not share it's penalty of bright lights. This would not work if the room's vision is reduced to below absolute darkness, such as 'Shadow Orb' or 'Utasa's Shadow', it will not help.
Last edited by Nootau on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Acarin » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:37 pm

I think one of the GMs already addressed this a while ago but I can't find it. If anyone else remembers please post?

The idea was, if I'm remember correctly, that thieves and Shar are intended to remain in the shadows while Utasa ambush then fight from the open with their bending techniques after the initial attack and aren't meant to return to the shadows. They're more able to fight in the open than the other two, so it was stated that they wouldn't be getting shadow strike.

Regarding shadow step, I won't comment too much on this but again, breaking engagement by a method other than normal probably isn't as well suited for Utasa who are capable of open close quarters combat.

EDIt: Not sure what you mean by low light vision also. Would this just be for a perception bonus? I never even thought of nether vision as having this benefit... but I guess it may? You'd get the same bonus by just making the area brighter with other utasa abilities, though.
Last edited by Acarin on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:42 pm

Where is it said they are built for open fighting? They do not have abilities that the thieves nor the Shar have to focus on staying in visible combat. In fact, using flash bang makes it easier to regain stealth status once again. Again you said it was stated but, no link to where it was stated. Are you sure the post existed or if it was just idle thoughts shared on OOC rather than a formal statement?
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Postby Acarin » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:47 pm

[quote=Nootau]Where is it said they are built for open fighting? They do not have abilities that the thieves nor the Shar have to focus on staying in visible combat. In fact, using flash bang makes it easier to regain stealth status once again. Again you said it was stated but, no link to where it was stated. Are you sure the post existed or if it was just idle thoughts shared on OOC rather than a formal statement?[/quote]

I do distinctly remember someone else asking for shadow strike for utasa and that was the reply. I remember it being a post by a GM a while ago, not idle thoughts. I might be remembering wrong (I don't think I am), but I'll look for it some more.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:49 pm

[quote=Acarin]EDIt: Not sure what you mean by low light vision also. Would this just be for a perception bonus? I never even thought of nether vision as having this benefit... but I guess it may? You'd get the same bonus by just making the area brighter with other utasa abilities, though.[/quote]
Low light vision would only increase light levels for the Agent, it would not effect perception at all. Can you tell me how I came across as suggesting such so I don't mislead again? The bonus to the agent would allow them to work in natural absolute darkness while other beings in the area would be unable to combat properly, if a Utasa uses beacon it would allow his targets to also see.
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Postby Acarin » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:51 pm

[quote=Nootau][quote=Acarin]EDIt: Not sure what you mean by low light vision also. Would this just be for a perception bonus? I never even thought of nether vision as having this benefit... but I guess it may? You'd get the same bonus by just making the area brighter with other utasa abilities, though.[/quote]
Low light vision would only increase light levels for the Agent, it would not effect perception at all. Can you tell me how I came across as suggesting such so I don't mislead again? The bonus to the agent would allow them to work in natural absolute darkness while other beings in the area would be unable to combat properly, if a Utasa uses beacon it would allow his targets to also see.[/quote]

I wasn't understanding the natural darkness part. I wonder if there is actually a distinction currently set up for natural vs. artificial darkness. What if the area is naturally dark but someone brings in a torch or a halo that is countered by utasa's shadow (if this is the one that darkens). Would that be natural or artificial?
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:53 pm

That would be artificial.
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Postby Acarin » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:38 pm

[quote=Rias]By the way, if you want to break combat and hide again for another stealth attack, use flashbang (raw wavebending cast), which will mesmerize the target and break combat engagement with them, as well as prevent them from acting until they're shaken out of the stupor or it wears off. It's really quite effective.

From what I understand, Rithiel intended for Utasa to initialize combat via stealth, following up with open combat aided by quickness and illusions, rather than being purely stealth-oriented combatants. That doesn't mean you can't choose to completely rely on stealth if you want, though.[/quote]

It's in the Utasa thread called "frustration".
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:18 pm

I guess Shadow Strike would be out though this would enforce the abilities such as Shadow Step to control the pace of the battle trapping targets within the room. Though with the open combat seeming to be the focus of the Utasa then, I will have ideas then for sustainability in combat rather than a stealth class.

Though at the same time, Usata might be a stealth class after-all. I really need to ask Rithiel what vision she had of it, seeing as even she said it was unclear.(see below)

[quote=Rithiel]Just saw this thread. While some of the problems have been fixed (tasks), I'll admit that the direction that I envision Utasa combat going isn't entirely clear (or rather, its clear, but some of them are not really feasible), so I'll be taking a look at it.[/quote]
Last edited by Nootau on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rithiel » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:28 pm

I have some ideas for abilities that will add sustainability to the Utasa, but I haven't had time to make them yet. One that I think will provide a lot of sustainability is first on my list come mid-December.

To reiterate what Rias said, I don't plan on giving the Utasa shadow strike. They're not pure ambushers like assassins are. I'll have to look into shadow step, since I'm not familiar with what it does.
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Postby KianTheArcher » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:48 pm

I think Shadow Step would be in theme for the Utasa, it would just need to be reworked to be based around Wavebending.

The ability allows the Claw of Shar to use illusions to make it easier to change positions in combat from avoid to engaged and vice versa. I believe when you use it to engage a target it also presses them, which makes it harder for the target to escape battle.

If the Utasa are supposed to be more up front fighters after an initial ambush, this would suit them very well I think. And thematically it would work very well, since it's supposed to be based on illusions. It could even serve as a pre requisite for Blink.
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Postby Rithiel » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:42 pm

It does sound right in line with the Utasa, and close enough to blink it'll probably be tied in somewhere. I'll take a look at some point.
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Postby Acarin » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:14 pm

[quote=KianTheArcher]I think Shadow Step would be in theme for the Utasa, it would just need to be reworked to be based around Wavebending.

The ability allows the Claw of Shar to use illusions to make it easier to change positions in combat from avoid to engaged and vice versa. I believe when you use it to engage a target it also presses them, which makes it harder for the target to escape battle.

If the Utasa are supposed to be more up front fighters after an initial ambush, this would suit them very well I think. And thematically it would work very well, since it's supposed to be based on illusions. It could even serve as a pre requisite for Blink.[/quote]

It actually allows for instant shifting to any position with a stealth vs. perception roll instead of the usual melee roll. You can move into position engaged without using the aim version. The aimed version (i.e. sstep <name>) causes you to move into postion engaged and results in a 3 second press. Cloak of shadows and an open sorcery channel are required to be active in order to use it.

EDIT: Also, it's not usable from hiding so strictly intended for open combat (I'm assuming).
Last edited by Acarin on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:12 pm

If it is for 'open combat' why do the Shar have it and not the Utasa?
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Postby Acarin » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:38 pm

[quote=Nootau]If it is for 'open combat' why do the Shar have it and not the Utasa?[/quote]

Well, it's a nether technique and we have abilities for open brawling as well (bloodlust, blade slap, nether hands, choke). I honestly think it doesn't entirely fit in with Utasa, but I'd have no problem with them getting it. I think it's not as useful as it sounds, but Landion says it's a powerful ability. I guess I haven't entirely figured out when to use it/what to use it for.

I was using it for moving to avoid to rehide (which it can work for), bridging the gap to ranged users (but archers go back into ranged too quickly for it to be useful), and to get close for a choke (choke is broken though). It definitely fits with Shar and to my understanding is one of our defining skills. For that reason alone, I'd want something original to go to utasa rather than a remake of this.

I could ask for blink for Shar as well as it would fit in with the whole assassin thing (and Kian has tied it in nicely to sstep)... but again, it's an utasa defining ability. Why give it to anyone else?
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Landion » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:44 pm

We don't necessarily want to just copy abilities over from other guilds.

If Blink gets upgraded, it will be tailored to the Utasa. Likewise, if Shadow Step gets upgrades, it will be tailored to them and their style of play.

I think both abilities could be improved or adjusted, and both do rely on distraction, but they do it in different ways, and offer different advantages.
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Postby Nootau » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:14 pm

While it is a 'Nether' technique, it is in fact just a illusion. The Assassin does not really travel, but appears to. Illusions and light manipulation are the core of what Wavebending, this is best seen from the passive effect of having a after image to trick the attackers. You are also correct, you could ask for 'Blink' as it would be good for an assassin to sneak behind the target yet there is an issue, it is an Illusion based flanking maneuver.. Since when does 'Nether' have the ability to create illusions?

Side note... There's talk of upgrading Blink?

As for copying other guild's abilities, it was simple as it currently happens that an ability is in theme with more than one Guild, such as Nether Vision, Shadow Strike, or Dirt Kick. I was simply wondering if Shadow Step should also be one of such abilities as it is rather in theme with the Utasa's Illusionary theme.
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Postby Acarin » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:29 pm

The assassin does travel, otherwise you would not be able to change positions. It utilizes a nether-based illusion to assist with this movement. This has precedence with abilities like minor haunting. Shadow step would not be duplicated as is because Utasa don't use nether. I imagine the nether actually enhancing our movement to some degree for this technique (don't know if it actually is) as it does with bloodlust.

Since nether obviously has the ability to create some types of illusions (shadow step as you stated and minor haunting as I stated), then there would be no problem with giving assassins blink would there?

Again, that doesn't mean we should have it. Landion's spot on.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:39 pm

If nether is supposed to created illusions freely then it would be fair that the Claw and the Rooks would gain such an ability to their list of skills. An Agents would not need to use Nether to create similar illusions that Nether might provide as their Wavebending creates illusions.

[quote=Shadow Step]This allows them to create an illusion that they are moving about the area almost instantly. However, perceptive opponents may still be able to separate the illusion from reality.[/quote]The ability itself says that it is nothing more than an illusion, there is no mention about infusing the assassin with nether to perform high speed maneuvers, where did you get that idea from?
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Postby Acarin » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:01 pm

Sstep creates the illusion that Shars are moving instantly, but Shars still have to move to catch up to where the illusion puts them. Otherwise they would never actually move into position.

It's common sense: If I fool you into thinking I'm somewhere, I'm still not there unless I actually move there.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:06 pm

It does not say that you move there any sooner than you normally would, the target only though you got into position a few seconds before you actually did. So yes, you do move to that position, several seconds after they think you were in that spot. There is nothing about inhuman or super human speeds of getting to a location in the description.
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Postby Acarin » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:26 pm

According to Landion, mechanically we are instantly placed in that position. That does not occur when using the position command.

I never said there was superhuman speed involved, nor did I say that the nether was actually assisting. I said "I imagine the nether actually enhancing our movement to some degree for this technique (don't know if it actually is)." This means that I'd like to believe that the nether is assisting us in some way to get to our position faster than we normally would but realize this is just speculation with no proof behind it (just as you often speculate about the mechanism behind abilities and channels when there is no evidence to suggest this is the case). This is why I did not reply to your comment the first time.

(Changing combat position to Engaged.)
The shadows swirl about you as you attempt to Shadow Step toward a dirty rat.

A dirty rat never sees the move coming! Poof!
You utilize the moment of surprise, and quickly move into position to engage it!
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:31 pm

It sounds like either the ingame text or the text of the skill needs to be rewritten. The skill's text talks of illusions but the skill's use in game doesn't even mention fooling the target into thinking you are where you are not, just that you make a dash into a new position...
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