Cryomancy and heat

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Arphaxad
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Cryomancy and heat

Post by Arphaxad » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:14 am

There was a robust discussion about where does the heat generated by the use of cryomancy go. "...and is essentially expelling heat in controlled ways..."

Perhaps it is expelled into the environment, causing a heating effect?

Something that would make sense is that the Sorcerer/Cryomancer could dissipate the heat into a special weapon. A staff or scythe, heating the tip or blade causing some heat damage. I think this is inline with the current view/vision of Nether/Cryomancy.

Any other thoughts?

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Last edited by Arphaxad on Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rias » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:31 am

Cryomancy isn't intended to generate or control heat. It's just getting rid of it. Keep in mind it's cryomancy, not ... temperature-mancy. The basic idea is that the heat is expelled and dispersed and not focused in any one way or place. This dispersal isn't controlled to any great detail - it's just pushed anywhere other than the focal point of the cryomancy. This shouldn't cause the heat pushed out to somehow become hotter than it already was (to say nothing of it being used as some type of weapon) - it's just being carelessly shoved aside and moved elsewhere, with no regard as to where that elsewhere is. Cryomancy is somehow causing this dispersal, but it is not doing so by focusing on the heat and manipulating the heat away. It's focusing on an area that is desired to be rid of heat, and so heat is expelled. The heat dispersal is just the natural side-effect of what cryomancy is doing.

If this doesn't make sense, let me know. I have observed that my fridge and freezer don't have an aura of blazing heat around them, though.
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Post by Arphaxad » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:47 am

Wasn't trying to start a debate about real world science and the game mechanics of Clok. I'm glad your refer and freezer aren't blazing hot, that heat sink and fan is doing its job.

Suffice to say that any heat generated by cyromancy is dissipated harmlessly into the environment without any noticeable effects.

Thanks for the quick reply.

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Post by Rias » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:47 am

Maybe a better way to have Cryomancy work would be to say that it just slows down molecule movement (and cannot speed them up, hence no heat-effects).
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Post by Rias » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:51 am

I hope my fridge example didn't come across as offensive or snippy, I was just trying to give an example of freezing not generating a large amount of heat in the immediate area. I'll be the first to admit I'm no scientist, and don't mind my failures at logic, physics, and metaphysics being pointed out to me. If my reply seemed overly long-winded, it's just because I do try very hard to make our magic system make as much sense as possible.
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Post by Arphaxad » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:10 am

The magic system is solid and make sense. Maybe rewording the cyromancy description as you suggested above will keep things focused. The magic FAQ goes a long way in explaining things. This game is the best I've seen in responding to the player base so keep doing what you are doing!

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Post by Acarin » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:26 am

The idea that we were trying to get at is conservation of energy. If heat is expelled from an object, it will transfer to the surrounding environment and heat the environment. The actual temperature change depends on what the heat is transferred to and the characteristics of that matter (i.e. specific heat). Heat is not simply lost, although the idea that nether is absorbing that energy would make sense IF nether was involved. Otherwise, in cooling an object by "expelling heat" to the degree that would cause freezing, you would see a noticable increase in temperature in the surrounding air/environment.

The reason you don't see it with your refrigerator is that the heat is being transferred to a set of coils/etc. that then disperse the heat through the back. If you stand behind a refrigerator that has gotten to room temperature while it is cooling, you'll notice that a significant amount of heat is being dispersed. Cooling is simply loss of heat from an object, but that heat MUST go somewhere.

Even if you are simply slowing molecular motion, the same thing applies. Energy (be it heat or kinetic energy) is being transferred out of the object to something else. That energy will result in greater molecular movement in something else. I think a very reasonable explanation would be a magical one... i.e. nether or some other "cryosubstance" is actually being used as a heat sink... So coating an opponent in heat absorbant magical substance with a high specific heat will drain the heat from them without effecting the temperature of the local environment.
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Post by Reynard » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:40 am

My thought on the matter is that your original explanation was better, though maybe a bit too ambiguous. Your refrigerator works in the same way. The REASON there is no area of boiling heat around it is that the air in the room around it (an to a lesser degree the entire atmosphere) is acting like a giant heat sink. The fridge does generate a net gain in thermal energy (blah blah imperfect machines blah), but even then the area you are dispersing the heat to is over 4 times the volume of what you are dispersing it from. Waaaay over. So while the expulsion of heat TECHNICALLY heats up the environment around it, this is beyond negligible.

tldr: Your first explanation fits teh science.


side note 1: Slowing down molecule movement without speeding up others would be a net loss in energy.
side note 2: The fact that your fridge generates net heat doesn't mean that cryomancy does. IF cyomancey does, it'd be because of the energy you use to cast the spell.
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Post by Rias » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:50 am

That's what I was wondering about. Is the amount of heat expelled with a cryo-bolt (a quite small area, considering it can be aimed so precisely) going to be enough to noticeably effect the surroundings or have a lasting effect on anything nearby? It's not focusing all the expelled heat into one focal point or area, it's just dispersing it randomly (not destroying it).
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Post by Isiaa » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:53 am

Heat becomes magic which is used to slow down kinetic energy. Therefore cryomancy should have a lower energy cost, logically, because part of it uses energy that is already there.

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Post by Acarin » Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:53 pm

While I can't say I entirely agree with Reynard's interpretation of the science behind this, I'll leave it here:

How about we just say that the cryobolt ITSELF is acting as the heat sink, drawing the heat from what it touches instead of actually expelling it into the environment.

But then, what happens to the energy when the cryobolt dissipates? Oh... the cryobolt is still cold.

I think this is why cryomancy doesn't exist in the real world and magic can't be explained with science.
Last edited by Acarin on Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Post by Rias » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:05 pm

The lore compels me!

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Post by Reynard » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:09 pm

You just made my day, Rias.
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Post by Acarin » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:13 pm

In that case, lets get back to talking about the science behind this.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Post by Lae » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:15 pm

I love reading things like this even though I'm totally focused on being a monk. :D

Keep it comin!
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Post by Isiaa » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:17 pm

Ah hells. Magic is the energy which causes miracles, both good and bad. For the sake of the argument a miracle is anything that happens outside the laws science has thus far discovered or the "natural" order. Thus Cryomancy is not just moving heat, it is transforming it into magic to affect the change of temperature. Therefore energy costs for cryomancy would have to drop as what happens would be that the magician initiates a reaction causing heat to transform into magic which causes a drop in temperature.

And this is the explanation of Cryomancy and how it would work. Is everybody happy now?

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Post by Rias » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:30 pm

Unfortunately, I tend to not be satisfied with "It's magic, let's leave it at that" explanations. I prefer to explain it as much as is possible, and a little debating is, in my opinion, very enjoyable and even enlightening. I love discussions like this.

Getting back to the science behind cryomancy, if we can ever satisfactorily explain it: I'm still trying to figure out the answer to my previous question.
Rias wrote: Is the amount of heat expelled with a cryo-bolt (a quite small area, considering it can be aimed so precisely) going to be enough to noticeably effect the surroundings or have a lasting effect on anything nearby? It's not focusing all the expelled heat into one focal point or area, it's just dispersing it randomly (not destroying it).
So the cryobolt is sort of just pushing the heat aside as it travels through space (dissipating over time - the cryobolt doesn't last forever). This will cause the area the heat is pushed into to be warmed, but the question is whether this will be notable or negligible.
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Post by Lae » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:40 pm

[quote=Rias]Unfortunately, I tend to not be satisfied with "It's magic, let's leave it at that" explanations. I prefer to explain it as much as is possible, and a little debating is, in my opinion, very enjoyable and even enlightening. I love discussions like this.
[/quote]

I might not play a Sorcerer or an Elemancer but I love discussions like this too. It's always awesome when a developer doesn't just have a list of what he wants, likes and expects. When they get into discussions like this and flesh out the idea of it, you can actually take that kind of knowledge and make it part of why you do the things you do. (also, things like this tend to cook up new ideas)

So thaaaank you. :D
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Post by Acarin » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:43 pm

The amount of heat the cryobolt would generate is dependant on a lot of variables, including the material (air or something else) it comes in contact with, ability of that material to disperse, the heat in the target, the size of the bolt, etc. Assuming we are talking about enough energy being dispersed to instantly freeze something... then yes, it is very likely that the heat emitted from the cryobolt (at its target but maybe not while traveling in air) would be noticable if the heat was expelled outward (This would be similar in some regards to an exothermic chemical process.)

Again, if the heat was not expelled but simply transferred to the cryobolt itself, it would make more sense as the cryobolt could just have a larger capacity to absorb heat without changing temperature.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Post by Isiaa » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:46 pm

Heat to magic to cold. I do not see what is wrong with just changing it to this. Energy cannot vanish. It can change. And energy cannot move. For the cryobolt to be stable the laws of physics must be suspended SOMEHOW and magic is the energy which creates a field of sorts. This field requires other energy and thus cryomancy is actually very simple. One creates a small field where the ordinary laws of physics vanish. Then to keep this field powered one causes the heat to power the field. AS the heat is transformed some of it transforms, instead of changing into magic into light of the blue spectrum making the field visible to onlookers. And possible to dodge. This is why elementalism ought to require slightly more energy and study than other magics. It requires larger magic fields and the elementalist can not simply link in some other energy with it for any effect. For instance linking light into the field would simply create darkness. Complete darkness, from the inside and out. Possibly it would warm up slightly as the light energy changes but whatever. Elementalism is basically creating something naturally impossible by channelling supernatural energies. Sorcery is the controlling of a substance through the use of magic and follows much the same rules except that magic can passively affect it. Finally thaumaturgy is using ones inner...grace I suppose. But that's a religious term and I'm not sure if it should be included. Let me put it like this. If the soul exists it must be supernatural in and of itself. Magic bolsters it until it burst out of the body. Being supernatural it is immune to the usual laws of physics and the like and is merely bound by perception. This also explains channels, which are nothing more than an illusion to allow the handling of an energy which should not be within a person. The illusion keeps us relatively safe from destroying ourselves with magic. This also explains the different levels of difficulty of magic. As for druidry, that is simply channelling magic to communicate with a soul. It is in fact a close relative to thaumaturgy. Wavebending is again a simple magical field similar to elemental ones causing sound and light to behave differently than they usually under natural and normal circumstances would do.

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Post by Acarin » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:53 pm

Last edited by Acarin on Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Post by Rias » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:05 pm

Having to resort to things like immunity to, or a lack of, the laws of physics always make me a bit sad. I'd rather slightly adjust how the laws of physics work in the game world so that a more detailed and satisfactory explanation can be put forward. It may be silly or nitpicky or overly-complicated, but that's just how I roll.

So if we use the cryobolt itself as the heat sink, and it absorbs the heat into itself rather than pushing it away, there's still going to be a point where the heat is released again, because the cryobolt is going to dissipate at some point. It could be that the cryobolt dissipates when its 'capacity' has been filled. Hmmm. Maybe as the cryobolt absorbs heat, it begins dispersing itself, becoming thinner and more widely-dispersed, so the heat is re-released over a greater area and at a (relatively) slow rate, thus resulting in negligible heating effects to the environment. Does that make any sense at all?
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Post by Rias » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:11 pm

Kind of like freezing a basin of water, breaking that big chunk of ice into tiny flakes, then spreading those flakes out over a large area. When they melt back into water, the individual flakes are so small and so widely-distributed that the impact on the surroundings would be negligible, as opposed to having a large basinful of water poured onto one spot.

My attempt at analogy. Win or fail? Applicable?
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Post by Reynard » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:53 pm

I should have mentioned this earlier: Have you guys ever heard of Laplace's Demon? Under the initial explanation, Cryomancy is pretty much that.
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Post by Acarin » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:53 pm

Since the bolt is freezing to begin with (colder than the rest of the system), it would be unable to transfer net heat energy back out. When the bolt dissipates the energy could be transferred as another form of energy (likely kinetic), so the bolt shattering into ice flakes would actually be very cool (pun intended) and sort of make sense.

We're violating conservation of matter as well if the bolt simply ceases to exist... so the bolt itself has to go somewhere... and doesn't necessarily have to even give up the heat energy immediately.

But then there's still the issue of creating a bolt out of thin air... so here's the question: Where does the bolt come from and what exactly is it made out of?
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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