Burning away nether?

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Burning away nether?

Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:54 am

So what exactly happens to nether when it is burned away? If it's actually completely "destroyed" with the physical matter not going anywhere then we're violating physics (not that this is always an issue but I know most prefer to keep things as logical as possible).Does it simply vaporize and reform somewhere else?

I ask because there may be some utility or good ideas that come from manipulating completely gaseous nether in the environment if this is what happens to it.

It seems like nether is a substance with some rather interesting phase transitions. We know it is normally in a pseudo-gaseous state (with properties of a liquid so maybe in some wierd very wide phase transition zone). It can be solidified with extreme cold (cryodisc). So when heated, it would make sense to me that it simply transitions to a gas and disperses. Any official opinions on this?

I thought of this because of the pyromancy thread. I always assumed that the "spiritual" component of thaum was burning it away and actually neutralizing it, but it seems this is not the case. If fire (not spiritual at all) is extremely effective against nether as well, I would assume that it logically would follow that extreme heating of nether simply causes it to change states without actually being "destroyed". If that's the case, then it simply drifts somewhere else and reforms (or hangs around in the air), correct?
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Rias » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:04 pm

It's vaporized and dispersed. At that point a sorcerer isn't going to have any control over it, other than re-conjuring it into a usable form via a standard sorcery channel.

Thaumaturgy both burns it away from heat as well as the reaction due to the unique properties of thaumaturgy working on the properties of nether. Notice a healing cast of thaumaturgy will harm nethrim, despite not producing enough heat to burn and harm people (otherwise it wouldn't be a very effective healing technique).

So thaumaturgic light on its own causes nether to fall apart, even when not particularly warm or hot. Adding in some extreme heat a la Spear of Light would simply cause even more damage to nether.
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Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:17 pm

Interesting. I wouldn't expect a sorceror to have direct control over it at that point.

But if there is vaporized nether floating around in the air, wouldn't nether begin to condense on cold surfaces? I'd think that gaseous nether could be manipulated, not through use of sorcery but by use of cryomancy.

If that's the case, wouldn't it be possible for cryomancy be able to dampen the impact of light and heat based attacks by reducing their temperature or by quickly restoring the nether to it's nature state?

If cryomancy can cause normal temperature nether to solidify, wouldn't it be able to at least partially restore heated nether to liquid/gas state as it's being burned off or decrease the impact of heat (not necessarily the spiritual component of thaum) if used correctly?

Wouldn't it also be possible to "gather" more nether into an area by cooling it? You'd expect colder areas to have more nether hanging around if this the case (Although the weather conditions in Shadgard and the Outpost don't currently support this).
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Rias » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:30 pm

Using cryomancy to solidify nether (as in Rasui's Cryosorcerous Disc) requires control over the nether, as you must apply an Elemancy-like pattern to the nether as well as enforcing that (causing it to remain in that pattern) via cryomancy. Nether doesn't naturally freeze solid. You need to alter nether's pattern to be liquid-like via sorcery manipulation first before it will be susceptible to freezing solid via cryomancy. Even in the case of Rasui's Cryosorcerous Disc, the solid form only lasts as long as it is actively maintained by the sorcerer.
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Postby Rias » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:37 pm

I should probably also note that nether doesn't seem to "like" being solidified. It seems to actively resist it, hence why you can't just change its pattern to solid. You can change it to liquid-like with effort, and then use cryomancy as a kind of workaround to then turn that new state solid. Directly turning nether solid by sorcery, however, has been impossible.
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Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:45 pm

I'm not necessarily referring to freezing the nether into a solid, other than that it can occur (thus we know that nether can change states like other physical substances).

What I'm saying is that applying a cooling process should negate some of the impact of heating from other sources... so someone expelling the heat from nether via cryomancy should cause it to maintain it's normal state for longer when confronted with heat (as it would take more heat to actually vaporize it and potentially expell heat from the source/extinguish it).

While nether is extremely weak to being burned away by heat sources, I'd think heat sources would be "weak" to the effects of cryomancy or be able to at least blunt their impact.

Expelling heat from a fire would cause the fire to extinguish, for example. Cryomancy is not a physical substance (you've stated that it simply rapidly pushes heat out) so heat sources wouldn't really impact cryomancy.

This makes sense to me from a pseudo-scientific approach (as close as we can get with CLOK magics), but if it's not consistent with your design intent and not something you'd like to work through further then let me know and I'll stop posting about this.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Rias » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:49 pm

I'm curious to see where you're going, so by all means keep posting. I enjoy discussions like this.
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Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:50 pm

Also, does gaseous nether (nether that's been "destroyed") resist cooling/condensation as well? It sounds like it would want to go back to it's original preferred form as a semi-liquid/semi-gas.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:50 pm

The question would be.. How would you be using Cryomancy in a way to divert a jet or sphere of flames?
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Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:57 pm

[quote=Nootau]The question would be.. How would you be using Cryomancy in a way to divert a jet or sphere of flames?[/quote]

Cryomancy could be used directly in some way to extinguish flames at the source or at a particular point in space (obviously if you continued to channel flames afterward you would still be able to make them but only if no longer exposed to the cryomancy's cooling), or it could be channeled into a relatively thick aura around ones body (as "freezing aura" or a passive effect from cryomancy channels with varying resistance depending on the number of channels) that could partially negate heat damage. Heat comes in contact. Heat is dispersed outwards and never reaches the target.

I'd think this would only partially blunt the impact of thaum light, but have a more drastic impact on other heat sources.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:03 pm

That makes me wonder.. if I use hydromancy on someone with Freezing Aura up, would that freeze the Rook in place? If it works both ways then I could see that as something balanced. More resistance to flames but in exchange vulnerable to being splashed.
Last edited by Nootau on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:06 pm

I also think that it would be possible to use cryomancy to cool gaseous nether trapped in the air to the point it becomes useable by a sorceror. This could be a good setup for certain "trap" type spells or combined nether/cryo abilities. For example, condensing nether in the air over a wide area then forcing it downwards with sorcery. This could make for some very interesting rook abilities (I don't think there are enough cryo/sorcery combo abilities and the two seem to work quite well together).

I know nether could never have restorative properties as it is strictly destructive, however, for those that rely on nether replacing certain natural biological processes, I could see cryomancy being used in certain ways to restore their nether to "normalcy" by condensing it (not solidifying it), assuming they are not significantly injured by extreme cold.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:08 pm

[quote=Nootau]That makes me wonder.. if I use hydromancy on someone with Freezing Aura up, would that freeze the Rook in place? If it works both ways then I could see that as something balanced. More resistance to flames but in exchange vulnerable to being splashed.[/quote]

I imagine it would solidify and fall to the ground before it ever touched them, and without "bonding" it would simply disappear.

Now is someone is soaked, you can freeze them. I just don't think it would be possible to soak someone who is freezing, but that might depend on the rate of the cooling (my understanding is that it's fairly instant).

EDIT: I think an elemancer would have to use earth or wind on a sorceror employing freezing aura in order to be effective (or just suffer through reductions in pyromancy damage if we assume that some of the heat still makes it through the aura and it is not being used to entirely extinguish).
Last edited by Acarin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:14 pm

The idea that it would freeze that quickly causes an issue, that doesn't stop the water's momentum, that only turns the water into a large projectile icicle. The water only disappears/disperses once the channel is released, not when something else is touched by it.
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Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:23 pm

[quote=Nootau]The idea that it would freeze that quickly causes an issue, that doesn't stop the water's momentum, that only turns the water into a large projectile icicle. The water only disappears/disperses once the channel is released, not when something else is touched by it.[/quote]

That could be a possibility too. Maybe hydromancy gets changed to the equivalent cryo/hydro combo (so ice projectiles instead of water projectiles) when entering a freezing aura or passive cryo cooling. I just doubt that it would soak and encase them. If you're launching continuous solid streams of water I could see them just stopping though (depending on how far back they freeze as the whole stream becoming progressively more rooted to the rest). If you're launching a somewhat compressed ball of water (although a compression pattern would likely make it freeze faster since pressure impacts freezing temp), I could definitely see it freezing and continuing on (although I don't know if it would slow or lose any momentum... I would doubt it as there's not a change in mass, just in molecular alignment and you likely wouldn't be impacting the force vector for the hurl)

The water disperses when the channel is dropped unless it has "bonded" with something is my understanding (so something has touched it).
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:31 pm

No no, Elemental bonding is the opposite. If a element such as water touches something it bonds with it and stays even after the Channel has been released. Fire touching wood will lite the wood, and the wood will burn even after the channel is dropped. Hitting a target with Hydro/Geo combo will leave mud on the target long after the channels have been dropped. Ect ect.

The thing is, only the parts of a channel that hits something will bond, so if you are hit by geomancy, the loose dirt, dust and rock flecks will stay but the rest of the bolder that was connected to the rock flecks, dust and dirt that hit you disappears with the channel.
Last edited by Nootau on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:40 pm

[quote=Nootau]No no, Elemental bonding is the opposite. If a element such as water touches something it bonds with it and stays even after the Channel has been released. Fire touching wood will lite the wood, and the wood will burn even after the channel is dropped. Hitting a target with Hydro/Geo combo will leave mud on the target long after the channels have been dropped. Ect ect.

The thing is, only the parts of a channel that hits something will bond, so if you are hit by geomancy, the loose dirt, dust and rock flecks will stay but the rest of the bolder that was connected to the rock flecks, dust and dirt that hit you disappears with the channel.[/quote]

Yes. That's what I said.

This thread really wasn't intended to be about cryomancy's interactions with elemancy and I'd rather not see it diverted, so if you'd like to keep discussing cryo and elemancy interactions (there are many other sources of heat/fire besides elemancy), maybe it would be best to make a thread in the elemancy or cryomancy folder?
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:48 pm

I'd like to think that rooks started using cryomancy in addition to just sorcery for a reason, that reason being that it interacts well with and provides some sort of additional advantage to their sorcery (i.e. the two are synergistic in various ways, kind of like how elements can work together for new purposes but not exactly). The only example we have of this is cryosorcerous disc right now.

Maybe transitioning gaseous nether back to the preferred state could be one concept that helps to move this relationship forward. It would make sense that cryomancy provides some sort of support type function to nether, helping to maintain it as well (since nether is described in the magic FAQ as a cold substance).
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby Nootau » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:54 pm

Derp, I really read your last line wrong, sorry about that. And yes It is being side tracked and will bring it up under.. Crap. Cryomancy doesn't have a forum area yet.(It can continue here in the Rook's board. It is their skill after all:http://bbs.contrarium.net/viewtopic.php?pid=11617)

Back to the topic if Cryomancy being used to change Nether gas into Nether Liquid.. How does Sorcery control nether in the first place? Is it from internal, such as it can only be manipulated by its original source or can any one with the knowledge of Sorcery manipulate a different body of Nether that they happen to find?

If it is the former, would turning it into a gas break the bond it has to its originator making it impossible to control Nether cooled from the gas state? if it is the later, is a sorcerer able to take nether from other sources such as a different person's familiar or from a Nethrium?
Last edited by Nootau on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:05 pm

That's a good question and I don't think it's been addressed. I assume that cryomancy would provide a link (i.e. if you are manipulating something with cryomancy already, you have a channel to it for sorcery)

Rias already has stated that gaseous nether is not usable by a sorceror. Cryomancy could potentially convert it to a usable form.

Since sorcerors can control animates and familiars that they are not maintaining a direct link to, I don't see why they would be unable to manipulate outside sources of nether. Could be entirely off base though.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby hadesfire » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:48 pm

I assume that if you're able to manipulate Nether into a liquid, then a solid via cryomancy, Nether really can change states, if indirectly. Using that, Sorcerers could potentially throw liquid nether on somebody and then use cryomancy to freeze it on them for a time, the probably couldn't attack with another nether ability because they'd have to maintain that frozen nether on them but that could have all sorts of interesting effects.

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Postby Acarin » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:42 pm

[quote=hadesfire]I assume that if you're able to manipulate Nether into a liquid, then a solid via cryomancy, Nether really can change states, if indirectly. Using that, Sorcerers could potentially throw liquid nether on somebody and then use cryomancy to freeze it on them for a time, the probably couldn't attack with another nether ability because they'd have to maintain that frozen nether on them but that could have all sorts of interesting effects.[/quote]

Freezing nether is extremely difficult to do. This particular scenario was not really what I was getting at. More along the lines of materializing gaseous nether at opportune times or preventing nether from being converted to gaseous form.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby hadesfire » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:06 am

So you mean like taking nether in the air and returning it into it's natural form in somebodies face via cryomancy? I assume that would be possible, it certainly makes sense to me, though it might be extremely OP without some major balances.

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Postby Acarin » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:28 am

That's more along the lines of what I was talking about although there would likely be other uses as well. Whether it would be OP would depend on individual ability designs but I think it could make for some interesting skills.
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Postby hadesfire » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:48 pm

I can think of several:

  • Suffocating enemies by clouding their face with nether.
  • protecting from attacks by creating an aura of nether around them.
  • creating areas of nether on the ground that burned enemy feets..

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