Burning away nether?

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Postby Nootau » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:03 pm

This is giving me new ideas for Hyromancy, thanks!
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Postby Xzean » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:48 pm

Here is a question: I am 100% sure there is a real life element that mimics the behavior we have been given about nether. Naturally gaseous, can be forced to a liquid but not solid form unless it has previously been forced into a liquid state.

I imagine if we can find an element like this we could make some interesting extrapolations from it.
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Postby Acarin » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:09 pm

[quote=Xzean]Here is a question: I am 100% sure there is a real life element that mimics the behavior we have been given about nether. Naturally gaseous, can be forced to a liquid but not solid form unless it has previously been forced into a liquid state.

I imagine if we can find an element like this we could make some interesting extrapolations from it.[/quote]

The problem with this is the pseudosentience aspect of nether and also the seemingly strange wide phase transition. There's nothing I know of that remains in a semi-liquid/semi-gas state across a wide range of temperatures or that doesn't quickly condense back after cooling. I think nether has some very strange properties that aren't entirely based on physics as we know them. I'm sure IC-wise rooks have some knowledge about the physical rules that govern nether. They would have to in order to manipulate it and research it. This is also why I see them using cryomancy. It must aid in this aspect.

I definitely think that working out these rules would really help to define what sorcerors are capable of...

We know how water, wind, fire, and earth act because they exist. We know that cryomancy is a somewhat controlled direct dispersion of heat even if we haven't adequately defined the mechanism. The principles behind wavebending are fairly obvious even if we don't know the exact mechanism again. What we don't know is how exactly nether works and the laws the govern it. With official GM weigh in, I think we can figure it out...
20:21:01 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: With obvious effort, Zuki pries up a thick scale over a drakolin's chest! Zuki spearhand-strikes the soft, unprotected area under the scale! Heart ruptured, death follows immediately. A drakolin lets out a final bellow of rage and falls lifeless to the ground.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Acarin » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:18 pm

I've been thinking about this a bit. I'm a bit curious about the general rate that thaumaturgy burns away nether. I assume that it can't be as exceedingly fast as I've always assumed since thaumaturgic healing doesn't instantly kill nethrim. If thaumaturgy is directed at "pure" nether, how much nether is removed per unit time/(maybe we can assume per meter squared as I assume it would be based on surface area).

The reason I ask this is that I'm wondering if it would be possible for nether to overwhelm a thaumaturgic effect by simply accumulating in such a quantity or at so quick a rate that the thaum is not able to burn it off quick enough. There is some precedent for something similar to this with shadow orb. Thaumaturgic light from a halo is absorbed by shadow orbs but doesn't burn enough of it away to make an impact...

I know the answer is probably going to be that thaum burns away nether instantly, but this does not make to sense to me entirely for a few reasons:
1) There is always a rate, even though it may be very fast
2) Thaumaturgy does not instantly vaporize non-corporeal nethrim (I suppose this would depend on the intensity of the thaum blast, but if this is the case, there must be limits to the intensity of thaum that a monk or templar could generate?)
3) Nether raw casts are not burned away by the presence of a halo
4) Shadow orbs are not instantly burned away by halos
5) Every other sustained nether ability and raw casts are not instantly removed by the mere presence of a halo or thaumaturgy.

This implies to me that there are conditions under which sorcery could trump thaumaturgy when directly clashing (although it would be exceedingly difficult and rely on producing enough nether to wear down the church member).

Am I completely off base with this? I'm going along these lines as I've been trying to come up with some interesting abilities for Rooks and for those with a major taint.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Lun » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:13 pm

I'm wondering if /pure/ nether would actually be affected by thaumaturgy. Nether that can be influenced by thaumaturgy is only seen in hybrid forms, such as in animated corpses, golems, spirits, etc as far as I know, and since it's not possible to simply raw cast sorcery at a thauma blast, I suspect I'll forever be left wondering that.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Rias » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:55 pm

Thaumaturgic light from a halo is absorbed by shadow orbs but doesn't burn enough of it away to make an impact...


The thaumaturgic light from the Halo spell is relatively weak, and more mundane light than "concentrated" thaumaturgy. Its purpose is to provide a soft personal light source rather than as some far-reaching nova of Light for the purpose of destroying nether. The two also never come very close together (a shadow orb and a halo). If you prefer more "realism", I can have shadow orbs lose density over time when someone with Halo, Minor Beacon, or Fire Shield is nearby, and eventually have the orb disappear. Shadow Orbs should probably also degrade over time in warmer climates and weathers, if we're going down that road.

1) There is always a rate, even though it may be very fast


It's Super Duper Pooper Scooper Fast, if the thaumaturgy we're talking about is a pure, concentrated form (something more powerful than a halo). I have no interest in defining an exact rate per comparitive volume/density/mass ratio or anything. I don't know exactly how quickly fire turns water into steam, either, or how quickly it will melt ice, or how quickly cryomancy freezes a specific volume of water, and so on. I think CLOK will be okay despite that.

2) Thaumaturgy does not instantly vaporize non-corporeal nethrim (I suppose this would depend on the intensity of the thaum blast, but if this is the case, there must be limits to the intensity of thaum that a monk or templar could generate?)


Have you seen a monk cast Sunbeam on incorporeal nethrim? Poof. Things like Spear of Light or Sun Disc don't insta-vaporize the entire wraith because the area of impact is fairly small. Being nebulous in form has its advantages - while the "vaporized" portion certainly lessens the wraith's overall mass, I guess you could say, it can still make do until the rest of its nether is destroyed.

3) Nether raw casts are not burned away by the presence of a halo


Halo is a utility-purpose light source spell, not a constant radial emanation of concentrated thaumaturgy blastification. It grants a little nether resistance, but that's it.

4) Shadow orbs are not instantly burned away by halos


See above regarding Halo.

5) Every other sustained nether ability and raw casts are not instantly removed by the mere presence of a halo or thaumaturgy.


See above regarding Halo. Also see above regarding Spear of Light and Sun Disc and their fairly small area of contact. Sunbeam, however...

This implies to me that there are conditions under which sorcery could trump thaumaturgy when directly clashing


A sea of water will extinguish a candle, and a blast furnace will melt and evaporate an ice cube, sure. A raw sorcery cast can indeed get through the weak thaumaturgic emanations of a Halo spell, or even the more powerful Minor Beacon.

Am I completely off base with this? I'm going along these lines as I've been trying to come up with some interesting abilities for Rooks and for those with a major taint.


Suggest away, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Rias » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:57 pm

Lun wrote:I'm wondering if /pure/ nether would actually be affected by thaumaturgy. Nether that can be influenced by thaumaturgy is only seen in hybrid forms, such as in animated corpses, golems, spirits, etc as far as I know, and since it's not possible to simply raw cast sorcery at a thauma blast, I suspect I'll forever be left wondering that.


It would be. If we allowed casting Spear of Light at a Shadow Orb, the orb would be significantly disrupted. If we allowed casting Sunbeam at a Shadow Orb, it would go poof.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Isiaa » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:45 am

Would it b fair to say that Nether is in the fourth form of matter, Plasma?

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Rias » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:34 am

Isiaa wrote:Would it b fair to say that Nether is in the fourth form of matter, Plasma?


No, since I don't know enough about plasma to say whether nether is in that form.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Blitz » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:56 am

I personally feel going too deeply into the science of Nether and Thaum will inherently drive either the GMs or the players (or possibly both) completely mad. There are powers at work in Clok which simply have no real world equivalent, thus not all of it agrees or fits in with our real world's physics. There are many, many parallels, but in the end, it's a fantasy setting.

I'm usually not an advocate of the "It's fantasy. Science has no power here." trope, especially for things which DO have real world analogs, but with Nether, Thaum and Other Assorted Magycks, I'm not sure if it's worth trying to understand it pursuing real world-derived logic or science.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Acarin » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:55 pm

I asked along this line simply because I was wondering if a Rook summoning a 2 foot thick wall or equivalently thick aura of fairly dense nether would be able to shield them from a thaumaturgic blast, for example, by simply providing such a density of nether that fire/thaumaturgic light would be unable to get through.

I was also thinking about trapping abilities for Rooks where someone is surrounded by a field of nether and takes damage if they try to move (maybe an advanced form of infused nether). This came into question because I was wondering if it would be reasonable to have halos negate this effect after a few seconds.

Also, I was considering this for defensive abilities (some sort of nether field). For example, such a field would vaporize/damage anything organic that enters (like freezing aura) while reducing damage from certain elemental attacks/thaum (if one could be damaged by it). If dense enough, it might obscure the user to the point where both user and any attackers both suffer decreased combat rolls (unless nether vision is active allowing for a clearer view).

Rias wrote:A sea of water will extinguish a candle, and a blast furnace will melt and evaporate an ice cube, sure. A raw sorcery cast can indeed get through the weak thaumaturgic emanations of a Halo spell, or even the more powerful Minor Beacon.


Is it not feasible for a rook to be able to control enough nether to see this type of interaction against pyromancy, a sunbeam, or a spear of light?

Apologies for getting too technical though. I'll try to avoid inquiring along these lines in the future, but thank you for the clarification Rias.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Acarin » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:17 pm

Also,

Rias wrote:If you prefer more "realism", I can have shadow orbs lose density over time when someone with Halo, Minor Beacon, or Fire Shield is nearby, and eventually have the orb disappear. Shadow Orbs should probably also degrade over time in warmer climates and weathers, if we're going down that road.


Landion explained this at one point, stating that the density of nether in the orb is sufficient that it is not significantly degraded by Halo, Minor Beacon, or Fire Shield. That doesn't seem to be the current philosophy, although it was once stated that orbs are potent enough to drain the light from multiple sources... If this is the case, ambient thaum or pyro abilities wouldn't likely have much of an impact.

I would prefer less realism though. Shadow Orbs already have a fairly short duration and need some improvement overall since they reveal the location of Shar members (It doesn't make sense to me that Shar would develop something that did this). I'd like to see them turned into an aura to be honest... but whatever.

If you want to nerf orb like that, it wouldn't be painful at all compared to everything else that's happened... Can't hide around monks or templar anyways anymore due to their newfound abilities that render months to years of stealth training automatically and completely useless for certain people (probably only me). Other Shar member might care more though...

If it happens to an orb, maybe nether beings should take damage just from being in the same room as a monk with halo or an elemancer with fire shield up. We might as well throw balance away entirely...

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Rias » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:32 pm

Considering nether is not solid (it's described as somewhere between liquid and gas), it's not going to have much stopping power against concentrated thaumaturgy such as Sunbeam or Spear of Light, or against fire. If the nether had its pattern altered similar to Rasui's Cryosorcerous Disc, that would be another story, but I don't think that would be possible in such large volumes. Even with the small buckler-like discs, it's very difficult, and only lasts for a brief instant (the moment of the incoming strike) before breaking form and fading again. With "normal" nether, the section of the "wall" struck by the beam, spear, or firebolt would easily give way and the attack would pass through unhindered.

Not only is nether nebulous and non-solid, it's also weak against heat (and therefore fire) and particularly against thaumaturgy. It's the last thing you'd want to use as a defense against such things. When it comes to defenses against nether's weaknesses, you're going to have to look to something other than nether. You can't just turn a negative (weakness against heat/thaumaturgy) into a positive (protection from heat/thaumaturgy).

Summoning walls of nether, let alone altering their pattern to a more solid-like state, for defensive purposes would be far too inefficient for any practial use, I think.


Just as a reminder for all those Light-hating people out there, recall that ordinary armor is quite effective at negating Light damage. Even soft leather reduces it significantly. Light has even less form or mass than nether, so just put something between it and you - even light leather - and you'll be much better off. Sometimes the answer is to just think conventional.

The trap idea sounds cool. I was considering something like that a long while ago as some kind of pyromancy ability used with a "cube pattern". I'm not sure how it would be best implemented, but the idea is fun.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Rias » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:46 pm

I'm sorry you don't like Shadow Orb. It's one of my favorite assassin abilities, and even with the tradeoff (tipping someone off that there's someone there due to the presence of the orb) I've found it range from very useful (especially in conjunction with cloak) to being a virtual "I Win" button when used in the correct situations, even against enemies who are normally hopelessly beyond me. Different people with different tastes, though.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Acarin » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:05 pm

Rias wrote:Considering nether is not solid (it's described as somewhere between liquid and gas), it's not going to have much stopping power against concentrated thaumaturgy such as Sunbeam or Spear of Light, or against fire. If the nether had its pattern altered similar to Rasui's Cryosorcerous Disc, that would be another story, but I don't think that would be possible in such large volumes. Even with the small buckler-like discs, it's very difficult, and only lasts for a brief instant (the moment of the incoming strike) before breaking form and fading again. With "normal" nether, the section of the "wall" struck by the beam, spear, or firebolt would easily give way and the attack would pass through unhindered.

Not only is nether nebulous and non-solid, it's also weak against heat (and therefore fire) and particularly against thaumaturgy. It's the last thing you'd want to use as a defense against such things. When it comes to defenses against nether's weaknesses, you're going to have to look to something other than nether. You can't just turn a negative (weakness against heat/thaumaturgy) into a positive (protection from heat/thaumaturgy).

Summoning walls of nether, let alone altering their pattern to a more solid-like state, for defensive purposes would be far too inefficient for any practial use, I think.


I see this to some extent but firing an arrow through water will slow the velocity of the arrow (and potentially change it's direction). Even if nether is somewhere between liquid and gas, it is still composed of something and has some mass associated with it. I agree that it would be inefficient to use it defensively (even cryosorcerous disc is inefficient).

I guess the thing I'm forgetting is that the light/heat is apparently not impacted by the nether. I don't entirely understand this however, as they MUST be reacting in some way in order to physically interact. Oh well. No more science.

Rias wrote:Just as a reminder for all those Light-hating people out there, recall that ordinary armor is quite effective at negating Light damage. Even soft leather reduces it significantly. Light has even less form or mass than nether, so just put something between it and you - even light leather - and you'll be much better off. Sometimes the answer is to just think conventional.


Stealth penalties... and breakage... AND not running around with no shirt on? I hope you're not suggesting that Acarin wear clothing? He's Nuum afterall. That would be unthinkable.

Rias wrote:The trap idea sounds cool. I was considering something like that a long while ago as some kind of pyromancy ability used with a "cube pattern". I'm not sure how it would be best implemented, but the idea is fun.


I think the trap idea would work well as an infused nether type type ability. It could be planted on the ground as a trap and infused with the "conscious" desire to lash out at anything organic nearby... I'd love to Rooks start training trapping. I also suggested this sort of thing for Shar a while back.

Another way to implement it would be to have it activate on 3 channel raw casts. You might be hitting with enough nether to cover the target (the pseudo-sentience causes it to try to wrap around the target as well as infuse). Not only would it have the impact of straight infusion (i.e. damage as time goes on), but would do additional damage if an attack is made or the target tries to run... now that stun is in, it might do that as well. Maybe even blind the target by the nether obscuring their vision or attacking the eyes in an uncontrolled fashion.

Or it could just be an ability that causes ambient nether to flare up and surround those nearby...

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Acarin » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:11 pm

Rias wrote:I'm sorry you don't like Shadow Orb. It's one of my favorite assassin abilities, and even with the tradeoff (tipping someone off that there's someone there due to the presence of the orb) I've found it range from very useful (especially in conjunction with cloak) to being a virtual "I Win" button when used in the correct situations, even against enemies who are normally hopelessly beyond me. Different people with different tastes, though.


I like it and use it regularly. It just never made sense to me that a guild based on stealth would want to reveal themselves by having a black orb floating around wherever they sneak. I imagine that they would have developed something less obvious to achieve the same effect.

The duration does seem fairly short though. I actually have a trigger set to constantly renew it when using it (and I usually don't use triggers), so I'm very conscious of the duration.

I wouldn't call it an I win button except in very very rare circumstances (It's great in dusklamp with nether vision for example), but it's a useful ability especially with cloak updates.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Isiaa » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:49 am

I'm guessing the reason why heat and Light aren't affected is because the Nether burns away when it comes into contact with them and then depending on the concentration of nether and it's thickness the burn spreads through it depending on the amount of heat and/or Light.

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Blitz » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:47 am

Acarin wrote:I guess the thing I'm forgetting is that the light/heat is apparently not impacted by the nether. I don't entirely understand this however, as they MUST be reacting in some way in order to physically interact.


Thought I'd pitch in here that Nether appears to have a natural tendency to dissolve/disappear, making Sorcery the active effort to overcome this entropy. Heat/light/thaum needn't be reactants -- they can also be catalysts, so while a physical interaction is required, the catalyst is not lost, i.e. may be able to proceed along its path relatively unhindered.

Acarin wrote:It just never made sense to me that a guild based on stealth would want to reveal themselves by having a black orb floating around wherever they sneak.


I'm tempted to agree with you -- announcing your presence with an orb like that is feels more like it's about sending a message. A bit like the giant floating skulls of Voldemort's Death Eaters, but practically useful in that it also darkens the surroundings. Does Shar do the terrorism thing?

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Acarin » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:00 pm

Blitz wrote:
Acarin wrote:I guess the thing I'm forgetting is that the light/heat is apparently not impacted by the nether. I don't entirely understand this however, as they MUST be reacting in some way in order to physically interact.


Thought I'd pitch in here that Nether appears to have a natural tendency to dissolve/disappear, making Sorcery the active effort to overcome this entropy. Heat/light/thaum needn't be reactants -- they can also be catalysts, so while a physical interaction is required, the catalyst is not lost, i.e. may be able to proceed along its path relatively unhindered.


Agreed. It could be a catalyst although this wouldn't entirely make sense as light/heat is not really ever a catalyst to my knowledge. It transfers energy exciting electrons, etc. If it is the light itself (and not the goofy nebulous spiritual component), then I don't really see how it could be reused for further reactions although feel free to enlighten me. This might make sense for ferrous materials but less so for an energy input...

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Blitz » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:50 am

Heat can be considered to have effects similar to that of a catalyst in that nothing happens at zero Kelvin, and thermodynamic processes occur faster at higher temperatures. Light causes lysis in many chemicals (look up photolysis), so maybe Nether undergoes something similar. It also carries energy, so light absorption generates heat. More importantly, it's an electromagnetic wave: an oscillating electric and magnetic field. Something I thought of just now is that, if we suppose for a second Nether has plasma's peculiar property of being highly conductive, light's electric field may affect it electrically (electrolysis). Suppose Nether has some sort of Galvani potential; exposure to light may cause a photovoltaic effect, generate current and again be affected electrically. If I were to guess, though, I'd say it's the _magnetic_ part of light's electromagnetic wave (yes, I know, they're not really separate things) that messes with Nether, which would also relate to its reaction with ferrous metals...

The specificity of Nether's interaction with _ferrous_ metals over other metals allows the assumption Nether itself may in fact be (or act like) a (para)magnet. Furthermore, we see this interaction with a magnetic substance is bad for Nether; iron does Bad Things to it, while not being consumed. Nether may be responding similarly to ordinary light's magnetic field.

Finally, we've both mentioned how Nether appears not to have a good real-world equivalent, and along with that, we don't have any substantiated grasp on how its physics 'work', so even if the putative explanations above are way off mark, we don't have to understand _how_ heat/light/thaum catalyzes Nether's decay for it to be an option (until the GM says it's not =P).

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Re: Burning away nether?

Postby Acarin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:42 pm

I would agree with you in some respects. Heat speeds along reaction by exciting particles (giving more kinetic energy to atoms), however it is CONSUMED in the process (The heat is transferred to some/all reagents to overcome energy barriers). It cannot therefore be defined as a catalyst in these reactions since a catalyst improves reaction rate without being consumed. Photolysis also causes input energy (i.e. light) to be consumed/transferred and light is therefore not acting as a catalyst. This isn't really important but thought that I should bring it up.

Maybe the pseudo-sentience of nether is just "scared" of light and it gets out of the way itself before a reaction occurs (i.e. quickly disperses before reacting with light). I find this a little far-fetched, as I hate putting feelings into fake science.

Magnetic fields may be possible. I came up with that theory awhile ago (its in another thread) and concluded that nether is some weird superconducting compound (explaining its state) influenced by magnetic fields. Your explanation concerning photovoltaic effect is interesting, but I would suspect that the time required to generate such potentials may limit our ability to apply this to nether (i.e. generation of sufficient current would not be instantaneous, I would think). I'm just speculating there, as it could be possible. I would be hesitant to say that light has a magnetic field associated with it, as even though it has properties of a wave, it is not polar, nor substantive enough to be something that generates magnetism (think about what is required for magnetism... many particles aligned in similar orientation/charge states).

We don't necessarily need to know this, but its an interesting conversation! Some day, I will elucidate all the great secrets of nether. Then I'll start working on my doom ray. I'm thinking I should have made a Rook.

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