Suggestion: Wear and Tear

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Elystole
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Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Elystole » Mon May 05, 2014 4:17 pm

I had an idea to address some of the weirdness of CLOK's economy: Items, such as furniture, should degrade automatically over time.

Part of the problem is that once a carpenter, to use them as an example, makes a piece of furniture it is good forever. That's their one and only sale of that item. Now, in real life, they'd charge a lot for that item because that one sale needs to sustain them for a while, but most of our players aren't business people. They just like making things. So right now everyone is actually under-charging for things. For example, real life jewelry is routinely sold with at least a 300% markup. That's because brick-and-mortar shops have a limited clientele and they don't make a lot of sales (how often do you need an engagement ring?).

CLOK players have an extremely limited client base (each other) and make very few sales. They should be charging out the nose for things. It might be useful if there was a way for crafters to sell pieces to NPCs.

But the other issue is that items in CLOK last a lot longer than they should. No matter what something is, it experiences wear and tear in real life. Its quality eventually degrades. Just look at the furniture in your room and notice how many dents, scratches, nicks, and scuffs are on it.

Having items automatically degrade would do a lot to alleviate the problem. We already have something like this in place for mining supports, so we'd just need to add it to other items: clothing, furniture, jewelry, containers, etc.

I'd suggest making it be affected by item quality. A masterwork bed is going to last you a long, long time (just think of the antique beds we still have today after centuries of use, but even those require care and maintenance). A crude bed is going to fall apart pretty quickly (think of that particle board piece of junk you picked up at big box store). This will present players with that classic problem of buying something cheap just to replace it or buying something expensive but having it last.

And apply this to NPC-manufactured items as well. This combined with the quality bonus/penalty will help push more business to our PC crafters as the discerning characters will want well-made, superior, or masterwork pieces that will last them a long time.
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

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Avedri
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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Avedri » Mon May 05, 2014 5:01 pm

The majority of individuals are too concerned with grinding skills (and this isn't a shaming post, who can blame them? Grinding skills is time intensive) rather than worry about getting quality items for their home. This is why some of the auction items from last year's Grum festival did not sell.

Also -- jewelry degrade? I mean I guess if you're saying that a necklace from Haiban is equivalent to going to the Wal-mart jewelry counter. But seeing as some of the items cost as much as a horse (or more) I would expect them to last.

There are better ways to address professions earning riln. A lot of suggestions that have been thrown around recently are a product of our low concurrency. If we had a bigger pool of players there would be a thriving economy. That should be our goal, that should be our focus. Finding ways to engage, involve and encourage new and existing players. Not suggesting mechanics to aid our handicap of being low population.

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Elystole » Mon May 05, 2014 5:26 pm

Avedri wrote:Also -- jewelry degrade? I mean I guess if you're saying that a necklace from Haiban is equivalent to going to the Wal-mart jewelry counter. But seeing as some of the items cost as much as a horse (or more) I would expect them to last.
Yes, jewelry degrades. I have personally seen a $10,000 platinum Tacori setting beat to hell. That's pretty much the best of the best. We had to send it back to Tacori for them to melt and recast it. I've also seen people scratch, chip, or outright fracture some really nice diamonds.

For a less dramatic example, prongs are particularly prone to wear and tear. They're too thin. That's why you're supposed to have your jewelry, especially rings, inspected by a jeweler every so often. Otherwise you'll snap a prong and, if it's a four-prong setting, you just lost your stone. Six-prong settings are more forgiving .

In short: Every time you bump your ring against something, even every time you put it on or take it off, you wear the metal way a little bit. Cleaning it takes metal off. That adds up over time.

And a bigger pool of players does not automatically a thriving economy make. If the number of customers increases, so does the number of crafters.
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Avedri » Mon May 05, 2014 6:17 pm

Eh, I dunno about all that. I have vintage jewelry from my Grandmother that was probably crafted in 1950 that is fairly pristine. It gets polished about every 10 years or so by our neighbors who are jewelers. I'm pretty sure they would be pretty much out of business if their prongs randomly broke.

And yes, low pop = weak economy

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Elystole » Mon May 05, 2014 6:48 pm

But how often do you wear that jewelry?

Quality does make a difference, which is why I suggested that the quality of the item effect how quickly it degrades. We were all pretty impressed that the woman had managed to bang up her Tacori ring that badly. It looked like she had gone rock climbing with it on. Which is the other thing: Activity level makes a difference too, so a ring that just sits in a jewelry box will only need to be polished. Dish washing is probably the worst culprit for ring wear and tear between the soap and banging the ring on the dishes, cutlery, and sink. But I don't know how involved the GMs want to make things.

Maybe jewelry, clothing, containers, etc. only degrade while worn?

Here's an article that my father, who has been a diamond broker longer than I've been alive, wrote about chipped diamonds: http://niceice.com/diamond-buying-secre ... -diamonds/
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Lysse » Mon May 05, 2014 6:49 pm

Most jewelry IRL probably isn't worn out hiking in dangerous wilderness, or subjected the stress associated with battle. So wear and tear seems feasible from a purely IC/RP standpoint.
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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Elystole » Mon May 05, 2014 7:06 pm

Lysse wrote:Most jewelry IRL probably isn't worn out hiking in dangerous wilderness, or subjected the stress associated with battle. So wear and tear seems feasible from a purely IC/RP standpoint.
Heh. And then there's that. Most jewelry IRL is damaged because you wear it while you're doing dishes and you bang it against a pot, then you wear it while doing some gardening and you bang it against a rock, then you're carrying in some bags and you accidentally whack your hand against a table. So wearing your favorite necklace out to fight bandits is a level above and beyond that.

Anyways, I haven't actually heard an argument about why this is a bad idea. Just that "the majority of individuals are too concerned with grinding skills rather than worry about getting quality items for their home." You know what would address that? Having the cheap stuff wear down and break.

By Rithiel's own admission, one of the purposes of the auction was a riln sink. This is also a riln sink, and it is one that makes sense, works constantly, and gets the players involved.
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Avedri » Mon May 05, 2014 7:07 pm

I forget that people wear the same outfits everyday in game. Realism = your character is gross and smelly.

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Kiyaani » Mon May 05, 2014 7:21 pm

I have furniture I've had my whole life and the only thing it could use is a bit of paint/varnish. I have furniture my parents handed down to me to use that they've had their whole marriage and it is in great shape - no scuffs or marks, the varnish is fine, the drawers all work. The only thing showing how old the furniture is would be a bit of tarnish on the brass handles, but that just adds charm. Furniture that isn't abused lasts a VERY long time with little to no maintenance so I don't really see it needing to be replaced in the very short span the game has been going on. If people want to replace furniture for aesthetic reasons that's a different matter.

As for jewelry... you clearly have more experience with random cases of people destroying their rings/gems/settings, but all the jewelry in my family is well cared for. We get it cleaned every few years or so, wear it when appropriate and don't smash it against things. I have a ring I've worn nearly every day since high school and it's in great shape. The stone is perfect, the setting is simple with no prongs. There's just a few scratches in the gold, but they're not even noticeable.

Honestly none of my characters really wears anything other than earrings or the occasional armband so I don't personally have a problem if this is implemented, but I don't see this as the solution to economic issues in-game either.

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Jaster » Mon May 05, 2014 8:13 pm

I don't see why everything needs to be hyper-realistic in game. I like to play my games, not work them.

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Elystole » Mon May 05, 2014 8:18 pm

Jaster wrote:I don't see why everything needs to be hyper-realistic in game. I like to play my games, not work them.
It's more that I'm trying to think of ways for crafters to be more involved than making something once and twiddling their thumbs afterwards.

It's one of the reasons that weapons and armor degrade.
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Kiyaani » Mon May 05, 2014 8:50 pm

Part of the problem here is too much supply and, as Avedri said, not enough demand.

Anyone can craft, not just traders, and the way many people seem to be playing there's too much self-sufficiency. NPC shops are there to fill gaps where traders/crafters don't exist and add a bit of variety and realism, but there's no reason every character needs to learn every skill just to have that skill available in-game 24/7.

Personally, I'd be happy if there was a system in place to limit how many crafting-type professions you can learn past a certain point unless you're a trader. No offense to certain characters, but let's be honest, being mechanically able to grind a skill in a few hours/days doesn't mean your character should realistically be able to know how to do everything under the sun. This kind of limitation would help people rely on others more, enable more realistic RP and help build community while still giving players the chance to try things out to a certain degree and see what they like or what fits their character.

My characters generally only use traders when they need something crafted, the exception being leather armor since it seems most traders focus on metals. I even have a few characters with NO profession skills because it just wouldn't fit their personalities or backstories. It would be nice to see other players relying on others for their goods more as well.

I don't think breakage is necessary for everything and certainly not for furniture or jewelry (unless it's a super rare chance). I don't hear much demand for carpentry or jewelers as it is and it's likely not because of people already having enough so much as people not having anywhere to put large objects or not wanting to have a wall of text in their character descriptions.

I'm not against helping traders/crafters have more to do, I'd just rather see them have 'more' to do and not just more work.

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Methiur » Mon May 05, 2014 9:24 pm

Just make everything harder to make and increase costs at the vendors. Less supply :)

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by jilliana » Tue May 06, 2014 1:17 am

I did always wonder why clothes doesn't wear down eventually, particularly for those who fight armorless. We bleed, get bled on and all the other stuff that comes along with it.

I agree that there could be a more regular or continuous economic flow that isn't directly involved with armor or weaponry. Unfortunately, the solution seems to be the wear and tear of more than just armor or weapons.

It's also nice to read a bit of constructive criticism instead of a back-and-forth with nothing but no's and can't's.
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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Elystole » Tue May 06, 2014 6:28 am

I'm kind of not seeing the "too much supply" argument, but maybe someone can better educate me. I'll admit I'm too new to know who is who, but I'll also say that people aren't advertising.

For serious blacksmiths, we have Ardor and Clayton. And if you want masterwork, that means Ardor - when he's around.
For serious leatherworkers, there's Faylen and Kent. And neither of them can do masterwork. Can they even do superior? All of my stuff from Faylen is well-crafted.
For serious carpentry, there's Clayton. I know Abana is working on it, but her stuff is crude. I still give her business for various reasons, but if you're concerned about quality, that leaves you with Clayton, and he doesn't do masterwork.
For serious jewelers, we have... I'm actually not sure. I think Ardor does this too? And there was someone I saw once but never heard of again. I think PC jewelry crafting took a hit with the recent introduction of some really nice, easily available pieces. And that is a profession with a high cost of entry.
For serious woodworkers, we have Faylen and... A couple others? I know Kent does weapon hafts, but most of the woodworkers I hear about are ranger-types who make their own bows. And, again, quality is limited.

So what I see is a handful of people doing all of the serious crafting for the game, and even then we only have one masterwork-producing character. There's not much, if any, competition or options on who you go see. I've seen a lot of people start Traders and then drop them. I think we have a lot of dabblers, but what can they actually make? The increase in crafting difficulty seems to have seriously discouraged dabbling because if you want to make anything good, you need to invest a lot of time and money into it. I think the charging for workspace has also cracked down on dabbling some.

I might not be opposed to professions receiving a similar multi-skill penalty like the ones instruments are rumored to have - but, then again, if professions get it, why not weapons? Do you really have the time to master every weapon under the sun? Well, no. Because if you try to do that you'll be steamrolled by a specialist.
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by jilliana » Tue May 06, 2014 7:30 am

In addition to what Elystole just posted...
There are a few other random assorted individuals who have been playing for a long time (similar to Ardor) that I've seen do their own crafting/weapon repairing. To be fair, they could be to the point where they don't want to advertise to a new playerbase and have their own customers. Although that is all well and good, it also gives the impression that less is happening than really is because people don't open their mouths and talk about what they can make. There are a variety of new players that are getting the buck to pay for those nicer items but they end up going to the same two or three individuals with the thought that their only other choice is to go to an NPC. Still, for the most part however, the PC's Elystole mentioned are the ones I could safely assume the majority of the current playerbase knows do work, with another name or two thrown into the pot.
When one thinks about it for a moment rather than shoot it down, one would realize that in the end, crafting has become an enormous sinkhole a lot of us are not willing to invest in quite yet even though the willingness is there somewhere...and as a result we'd rather have our items made by someone and not always a PC just for the insta-satisfaction of having an item quickly.
I'm all for penalizing the Master Jack of all trades. Yes, there is the arguement that Clok is just a game...but eh, the crafters who complain still log in regularly as far as I can see.
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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Skah » Tue May 06, 2014 6:19 pm

Jaster wrote:I don't see why everything needs to be hyper-realistic in game. I like to play my games, not work them.
This. I want to post this in half the threads in the subforum.

I don't think good quality wooden furniture would degrade within a few years, but honestly even if it was a step towards realism I wouldn't be a fan. The day Clok is completely realistic is when I turn it off, and interact more with the actual world.

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Rias » Tue May 06, 2014 7:31 pm

I think I understand the basic concept behind the idea, which is to ultimately help (not hinder) Laborers with their crafting by keeping them in greater demand for repairs and crafting replacement pieces. In the case of jewelry and furniture though, I'm not as on board as I am with weapons/armor.

However, the question does remain: How can jewelrycrafting be more interesting/useful? Not useful as in "make awesome enchanted gems for items that give you +5 to your dodge!" because that isn't going to happen anyway, but useful as in ... well, like was already stated: Once you've bought that splendorous black diamond pendant or whatever, you're pretty much set. I guess if people are buying junk like that, they might be the type to be more expensive jewelry pieces just to show how wealthy they are, because wealthy people are weird like that.

I do acknowledge the other problem of NPC vendor jewelry being infinitely available, and at extremely low prices. I may have to crack down on those items.
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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Rias » Tue May 06, 2014 7:32 pm

P.S. A big part of me does want to penalize people for wearing fancy clothing and jewelry during melee.
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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Rias » Tue May 06, 2014 7:45 pm

Oh, and in the case of carpenters, they do get a lot of use by making mine supports for mines. Old rooms will be abandoned and collapse, and new rooms will be constantly being dug, so I think once mines are more widely available again, that'll be carpenters' primary request.

Furniture: I'm totally making it so that when weirdos drag handcarts through their house, it has a chance to bang against furniture and degrade it and make it look all banged up. Bwa ha ha!
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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Avedri » Tue May 06, 2014 8:33 pm

Rias wrote:P.S. A big part of me does want to penalize people for wearing fancy clothing and jewelry during melee.

Don't do it. Also, if you want to make jewelry better, find ways to encourage RP that appreciates fancy people, wearing nice stuff. Not penalizing them when they do.

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Rias » Tue May 06, 2014 8:43 pm

Avedri wrote: Don't do it.
Oopsie!
Avedri wrote: Also, if you want to make jewelry better, find ways to encourage RP that appreciates fancy people, wearing nice stuff. Not penalizing them when they do.
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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Elystole » Tue May 06, 2014 8:55 pm

Rias wrote:I think I understand the basic concept behind the idea, which is to ultimately help (not hinder) Laborers with their crafting by keeping them in greater demand for repairs and crafting replacement pieces.
Rias gets it. I'm not sitting here thinking, "You know what? CLOK should be more realistic." Rather, I see a game problem and am trying to figure out how to address it, and I prefer ideas that make sense. Realistic ideas tend to fit that bill nicely.

Problem: Crafters spend hours upon hours and thousands of riln to hone their craft, but they don't get to actually make much. Only PCs buy things, but PCs only need to buy said thing once since items last forever. Most professions aren't really professions (as in ways to earn a living) so much as hobbies.

Possible Solutions: Crafters start charging more. Items degrade and need repair or replacement. The market is extended to not just commodities but also functions as a sort of flea market where crafters can sell the wares they make while grinding (I'm seriously wondering what people do with the piles of stuff they make to practice) so that finished products are worth more than raw components (which would also drive prices up).
However, the question does remain: How can jewelrycrafting be more interesting/useful?
The first idea that sprang to mind is for the ability to adorn hilts, metal hafts, and certain leather items (like belts?) with gems.

Perhaps a better idea but more involved idea: Make gems function as foci for channeling. You could go nuts with this with different types of gems or even different types of cuts being better for different kinds of channeling. Elemancers might be ale to get player-crafted wands and staffs by having someone craft the wand or staff itself then having a jeweler set the stone. Monks and Rooks might wear big brooches, tiaras, belts, or whatever else with stones set in them and channel through them. And these gems degrade overtime from the stress of channeling until they finally break.
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

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Re: Suggestion: Wear and Tear

Post by Elystole » Tue May 06, 2014 9:07 pm

Rias wrote:P.S. A big part of me does want to penalize people for wearing fancy clothing and jewelry during melee.
Make a random, perhaps small, chance that if you're wearing a fancy bit of jewelry and get hit in that location that damage is applied to the jewelry. You could do the same for clothing.

This would work especially well if jewelry works with channeling. Do you want to be a fancy Rook with billowing robes and shiny jewelry? Stay out of melee or someone will break your stuff!

And it would encourage fancy RP by making fancy clothing and jewelry not so common. Someone who walks around in silks and gold is making a statement: "I am too high class to be standing in the mud and blood with the rest of you." Or if it is someone who usually is dressed plainly, their dressing up means something special is going on. That really nice custom-made item you got at the festival would actually mean something if you only brought it out when you weren't going to break it.

I'd pay more attention to what people are wearing in that case whereas, right now, it is just so much purple prose.
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

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