Mining suffers a massive blow

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Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby clayton » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:36 am

Well, now that mining has been severely crippled, due to the increased roundtime, I don't think there will be many people doing it anymore.
I don't know what the roundtimes are per mining attempt, but even with Clayton's master mining ability, he gets at the very least, 22 seconds of roundtime each dig.
What is realy going to make mining a turn-on for the majority of people, is when you hit a cave-in or gas leak. You'll be dead before your roundtime expires. If not you, your horse will be, either by suffocation, or a flare up from the light you're carrying.
If the gas doesn't kill you, the cave-in certainly will, since you get about a fifteen second pause between the rubling, and the debris actually coming down on your bodyparts.
I hope gas leaks and cave-ins will be severely adjusted to compensate, because as of the time Clayton was attmeping to mine, it's very unbalanced.

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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby Rithiel » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:42 am

Mining has not been severely crippled, it hasn't even been nerfed.
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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby clayton » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:03 pm

No? Would you like me to paste some of my roundtimes?
You begin mining, hoping to find some precious metals or stones. Heigh-ho! (M:2207)
Using your expertise in mining, you selectively prospect the area in search of tourmaline.
Roundtime: 23 seconds.

(Type stop to stop auto-prospecting.)
You continue mining the area with your polished iron pickaxe with a cobalt haft. (M:2207)
Using your expertise in mining, you selectively prospect the area in search of tourmaline.
Roundtime: 23 seconds.

(Type stop to stop auto-prospecting.)
You continue mining the area with your polished iron pickaxe with a cobalt haft. (M:2207)
Using your expertise in mining, you selectively prospect the area in search of tourmaline.
Suddenly, the glint of minerals causes you to pause. As the dust clears you see you have discovered a tourmaline vein!
Roundtime: 26 seconds.


Bug report #8692 sent as follows:
long roundtimes when mining: I'm now getting 23 or more seconds each time I mine? What's going on


[FROM Jirato (OOC)]: It's not a bug.
report so do the reduced roundtimes for the trader abilities still in affect?


[FROM Jirato (OOC)]: Yes. You're still getting reduced roundtime from your master miner skill, I'm not really at liberty to discuss the details of the mechanics change, since Rithiel decided not to announce it in the changelog.

You continue mining the area with your polished iron pickaxe with a cobalt haft. (M:2207)
Using your expertise in mining, you selectively prospect the area in search of tourmaline.
Roundtime: 24 seconds.
** A sudden hissing sound fills the air!
stop

You stop prospecting.

** The hissing continues as a nauseating stench begins to fill the air.

** The hissing continues as a nauseating stench begins to fill the air.

** A nauseating stench fills the air making it difficult to breathe!
You choke, coughing and gasping for air!
26 suffocation damage!
A dark gray donkey chokes, coughing and gasping for air!
** A nauseating stench fills the air making it difficult to breathe!
You choke, coughing and gasping for air!
9 suffocation damage!
A dark gray donkey chokes, coughing and gasping for air!
** A nauseating stench fills the air making it difficult to breathe!
You choke, coughing and gasping for air!
46 suffocation damage!
A dark gray donkey chokes, coughing and gasping for air!


So you see.. the massive increase in roundtime disables you from getting away from a sudden gas leak. Just think how it would be during a cave-in.
Still not nerfed?

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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby Rithiel » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:06 pm

I knew exactly what you were talking about and no, mining did not get nerfed. Perhaps you should spend some time thinking about how you're mining.
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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby Kiyaani » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:17 pm

Regardless of whether or not you think this was nerfed or bugged, please remember to keep criticism constructive and concise and remain respectful when making a post, suggestion or posing a concern. The GMs are not out to get you or make your life difficult. They are trying to provide an RP-encouraging environment.

I understand that some game changes are implemented without warning (I'm not sure if there was an announcement made, but I don't see a new news article) until the change logs are posted each week, but it would be a good idea in the future to use resources available to you (question channel, bug if you think it was broken or request) before jumping to conclusions or getting snippy and sarcastic with the staff.

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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby clayton » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:39 pm

I'm mining the exact same as I always have. With a superior quality pickaze.
Mining has never been this incredibly slow before and since there were no announcements that I'm aware of, or news posts to read when logging into the game, it's quite a shock to go from 3 seconds to 22+ seconds of roundtime.
As for what Kiyaani says in a post below this, I write it as I see it.
One day you're mining away, happy as a clam, the next, you get hit with 26 seconds of roundtime and choking on gas fumes because your roundtime is so high, you have no chance to escape.
Perhaps you don't do any mining, but I do. all traders do if they're going to work in the fields of metal or lapidary.

anyway, I did check to see what I might be burdened by, since it was suggested to me that perhaps it had to do with how much I'm carrying.
I've always mined in leather armor, but just recently, I upgraded my armor to plate.
Ok so I removed pieces one at a time, with no change.
when I got down to my sabatons, I started seeing 8 seconds of roundtime again.
However ... as I write this, I am ''You're not carrying too much, you should be able to move about fairly unburdened. and still, I am getting upwards of 23 seconds of roundtime.
So what's next. what am I doing differently today that I wasn't doing a few days ago.
You get to work, mining a quartz vein.
You manage to dislodge a small chunk of crystalline quartz from a quartz vein!
You place the small chunk of crystalline quartz in a cedar-planked wagon.
22 seconds.

You carefully examine a polished iron pickaxe with a cobalt haft...
You notice nothing unusual about the head.
You notice Clayton's crafting mark.
It is a large item, mainly made of iron.
It could be used to dig.
It could be used to mine.
It could be used to till in an appropriate field of soil.
It could be wielded in melee combat with either one or two hands, its effectiveness dependent on your Hafted Weapons skill.
It feels a bit awkward to wield, and you figure you could get up to 2 strikes per attack with it.
It would be difficult to parry with.
It appears to be in good repair.
It appears to be of superior quality.
3 seconds.

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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby Rithiel » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:00 pm

However ... as I write this, I am ''You're not carrying too much, you should be able to move about fairly unburdened. and still, I am getting upwards of 23 seconds of roundtime.


You see Clayton.
He is about five and three-quarters feet tall and appears to be an adult. He has thick short light brown hair and thoughtful hazel eyes. His skin is fair and his body's build is slender.
He is holding a polished iron pickaxe with a cobalt haft in his right hand.
He is wearing an exquisite iron gorget, a weathered green fleece greatcloak over a fine wolf fur shirt, a dark leather pole harness and a canvas satchel, a quality leather pack, some fine bear fur trousers bound with a braided cyan leather belt with a polished steel keyring and a leather sling attached to it and some polished iron sabatons.

That's not only your sabatons.

Honestly, you shouldn't be doing manual labor in armor. I wasn't planning on announcing it separately from the changelog because if you're RPing, you won't be wearing armor when you do things like mining, but here it is: Manual labor while wearing armor just got a lot harder. So don't wear armor while doing professions and nothing will have changed. Wear armor while doing them (to protect yourself or whatever) and pay the cost. It's a trade-off. It certainly doesn't break anything.

Does encumbrance matter? Not yet, although that change will be coming soon.

I feel like it needs to be said yet again: The game is in alpha. We change things, often without warning, all the time. We're not going to individually announce all these changes, especially when we don't expect them to matter because it's to prevent people from doing something they shouldn't be doing anyways. Even if I had announced it, there's no guarantee that you would have been online at the time. It was in the changelog - that's what the changelog is for. But we post the changelog when there's enough in it to matter, so it hasn't been posted yet.
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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby Zoiya » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:10 pm

There used to be a time when the GM's used to listen to chat, talk to players, take your ideas right from chat and implement them. We used to LOVE interacting with our players and we all felt like we were part of a community.

That hasn't happened for quite some time. Between all of the conspiracy theories, the blatant rudeness and the often times disgusting manners that people have toward the people who VOLUNTEER their time to make this mud better, you're lucky that anyone still works here. I can't count on my hands or even my feet the amount of times when we've been frustrated or even hurt by the way that the players of this game treat the people who work here. It's shameful.

It is one thing to start a discussion about something that you may not agree with, or like, it's another thing entirely to come to the forum and blast something that you don't understand.

It's sad to say, but I see the mud going on a steady down spiral and the worst it gets, the more likely it is that you won't have anyone making any changes or making fun things for you to do, and this will just become another dead mud.

But please, continue to be rude and disrespectful just because you're not getting YOUR way.
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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby Methiur » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:24 pm

I haven't mined... yet, but I think the changes add realism. Rithiel, do you think it would be fair to shorten the RT only in situations though when something goes awry? That also makes sense from a realism standpoint as the moment you notice a cave in or gas you aren't going to stick around and continue mining which is what I think RT is intended to simulate.
Last edited by Methiur on Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MOAR KVETCHING!!!

Postby Elystole » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:01 pm

A few things.

1. It always struck me as kind of odd to see people mining wearing full armor. The change makes perfect sense. I am assuming this applies to most, if not all, professions and am wondering if you are counting furs as armor for those people who do professions (like logging) out in the cold?

2. How do you check the changelog? Newbies don't know these things otherwise I'd be checking that thing all the time. I like seeing the random stuff GMs do and it helps with perspective in that even if your favorite thing isn't being worked on stuff is being released all the freaking time.

3. Clayton, I keep asking myself this so I'm going to ask you now: Why do you even play this game?

All I ever see you do is kvetch. You kvetch on the channels. You kvetch on Skype (where your status has been "Where are all the masterfully-crafted items!" for a month and before that was "raise your hand, if you want and (sic) end to be put to the nerfing of Clok profession skills!"), which I'm sure makes people want to talk to you. You kvetch on the boards. It's clear that you don't like being here, so why are you here? Go play something else. Maybe you'll find something you'll enjoy or, at the very least, you'll find some perspective.

Because I've played other MU*s and it makes me like CLOK that much more. It makes me appreciate that Rias and the other GMs are approachable and sane, instead of dysfunctional or socially maladjusted like most MU* staffers and players. And I really don't appreciate you or anyone else trying to change that because you have entitlement issues. You aren't owed anything. CLOK is Rias's hobby that we're all fortunate enough to enjoy. He and the other GMs put in hours of work while you're spending hours screwing around, and most of the time they don't get anything out of it. Honestly, I wish they'd be more possessive with their toys and start booting people who make them or others miserable. You have no right to be here. It's a privilege.

If you came to my house to play my tabletop game and took this attitude, I'd punch you in the throat and throw you out.

TL;DR: Stop complaining; or go away. You're bothering me.
Last edited by Elystole on Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby Skah » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:36 pm

Seems like a reasonable, realistic change to the most profitable profession in Clok. My first character did a lot of mining, and he never wore armor, because it would feel silly. I know Ardor doesn't when he mines.

I really appreciate the work the GMs put into the neverending challenge of extending, balancing, and improving Clok. I gripe sometimes on chat, but that doesn't mean I don't have a ton of respect for all the (unpaid, underappreciated, awesome) work that you guys do.

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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby Drayla » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:03 pm

Well put, Elystole. I feel the same way you do, though admittedly CLOK is the only MUD I've ever played. I would have never said anything like what you did though, because I don't like to step on toes too much. I'll complain to someone else or be very passive-agressive about it, but I couldn't just come right out and call someone out like that.

I will say that I'm far from innocent aboit complaining about something. But generally I'll accept it and be fine the next day; when the crafting changes came around, I didn't like them and honestly didn't want to deal with them, so I didn't. I don't craft anymore. And you know what? I don't really miss it that much. I may take up lapidary again at some point, but for the most part I am perfectly happy to not do any crafting, and that's how it should work; I won't craft because I don't enjoy it, so I will rely on other characters who do craft, thus creating a balanced system where I'm not trying to be a Jack-of-all-everythings.

I will make a more conscious effort to not [witch] and moan about any changes I don't like and instead learn to like them or work atound them. I know I do not have a right to be on CLOK, I am allowed on, and the GMs have no obligation to make me happy in any way, shape, or form.

Clayton, I do suggest asking yourself why you even play. I did this at one point in the past, and I ended up leaving for about a month or two without ever logging on. When I eventually did come back, nothing I hadn't liked had been changed. Nothing had been added or removed to make the aspects of the game that I didn't like better. What did change was my perspective. I took some time off, came back, and decided to start anew. Since then, I've been happy with the game, and even try to help get others to just get over it and deal with the same issues I had, because they benefit the game, even if they don't benefit you. Maybe what you need is a break, just like I did. Get away from CLOK for a while. Do something else. You'll either realize you weren't enjoying yourself anymore and move on, or you'll come back and have a new respect for how the mechanics in place help boost the game's RP environment.

Also, remember that the GMs in charge of this game are just like you and I (although infinitely more patient and tolerant of us, I am sure). They aren't getting paid for this. They don't get any kind of special reward or anything. They do this because they enjoy it, they have ideas on how CLOK can be better, and they want to provide us with the best playing experience possible. If you take away that enjoyment or that desire to give us the best game possible, soon, like Zoiya said, CLOK would have no one to work on it and would eventually just disappear entirely. I don't want to see that happen.

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Lack of memes? Addressed. You're welcome.

Postby Elystole » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:26 pm

Drayla wrote:I would have never said anything like what you did though, because I don't like to step on toes too much. I'll complain to someone else or be very passive-agressive about it, but I couldn't just come right out and call someone out like that.


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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby Gad » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:12 pm

This seems more of an armor issue than a mining issue. Many have asked for a helmet with a light. Could one be made that protects the eyes and will not encumber the miner? Those "one-shot" to the eyes from a cave-in can be frustrating. Perhaps an ability or piece of equipment can be introduced for traders to help negate some of the RT while wearing their armor mining?

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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby Rithiel » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:40 pm

Gad wrote:This seems more of an armor issue than a mining issue. Many have asked for a helmet with a light. Could one be made that protects the eyes and will not encumber the miner? Those "one-shot" to the eyes from a cave-in can be frustrating. Perhaps an ability or piece of equipment can be introduced for traders to help negate some of the RT while wearing their armor mining?


Traders already have abilities that reduce RT. And sorry, but I don't see covering your eyes as a viable option while mining. You could wear a plate helmet without suffering much penalty, but it couldn't cover your eyes. It's hard enough to see in a dark mine, covering your eyes would just make that worse.
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Re: Mining suffers a massive blow

Postby Karasi » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:39 pm

This might become rather lengthy.

Rithiel wrote:
"I feel like it needs to be said yet again: The game is in alpha. We change things, often without warning, all the time. We're not going to individually announce all these changes, especially when we don't expect them to matter because it's to prevent people from doing something they shouldn't be doing anyways. Even if I had announced it, there's no guarantee that you would have been online at the time. It was in the changelog - that's what the changelog is for. But we post the changelog when there's enough in it to matter, so it hasn't been posted yet."

I have a few thoughts, but I'm not sure if I can express them clearly.
First, I understand and completely respect that this game is in alpha. I can't speak for others, but I have no problem with this.
However...
Second, I do wish there was a bit more openness regarding changes.
I'm one of those people who often does not make connections. I don't know if it's a learning disability, just how my brain works, or what, but I am often confused to hell and back by things that other people say and do, and I ask a million questions, most of which are private because I feel too stupid or embarrassed or uncomfortable to ask them publicly.
Because of this, it would help me tremendously to have more communication, and more of it gameside, even just a blurb saying: new changes to the changelog see: *insert website URL here). This would let me know that I need to pay attention.
I don't know what my true mental condition/s are, but I'm one of those people that needs reminding, or I forget. It's not that I don't care--I care a lot--I just suck at organizing even my own thoughts.

That said, I have no issue with changes coming. I expect them, and I for one am so beyond grateful for the GMs for all you guys do behind-the-scenes, and otherwise.

Kiyaani wrote:
"Regardless of whether or not you think this was nerfed or bugged, please remember to keep criticism constructive and concise and remain respectful when making a post, suggestion or posing a concern. The GMs are not out to get you or make your life difficult. They are trying to provide an RP-encouraging environment."

And she wrote more besides, but to keep this shortened somewhat:
Thank you. You said exactly what I wanted to say far more elegantly and respectfully.
I think we could all use a reminder to be more respectful now and then, and honestly, snipping at the GMs, and anyone for that matter, isn't exactly a way to make people want to work on something that is supposed to be fun.

Zoiya wrote:
"There used to be a time when the GM's used to listen to chat, talk to players, take your ideas right from chat and implement them. We used to LOVE interacting with our players and we all felt like we were part of a community.

That hasn't happened for quite some time. Between all of the conspiracy theories, the blatant rudeness and the often times disgusting manners that people have toward the people who VOLUNTEER their time to make this mud better, you're lucky that anyone still works here. I can't count on my hands or even my feet the amount of times when we've been frustrated or even hurt by the way that the players of this game treat the people who work here. It's shameful.

"It is one thing to start a discussion about something that you may not agree with, or like, it's another thing entirely to come to the forum and blast something that you don't understand."

The GMs have my utmost sympathy dealing with stuff like this. I think that's all I want to say in response to Zoiya, except to give you admins virtual hugs for all the hard work and crap you put up with.

Elystole wrote:
"2. How do you check the changelog? Newbies don't know these things otherwise I'd be checking that thing all the time. I like seeing the random stuff GMs do and it helps with perspective in that even if your favorite thing isn't being worked on stuff is being released all the freaking time.

"3. Clayton, I keep asking myself this so I'm going to ask you now: Why do you even play this game?

"All I ever see you do is kvetch. You kvetch on the channels. You kvetch on Skype (where your status has been "Where are all the masterfully-crafted items!" for a month and before that was "raise your hand, if you want and (sic) end to be put to the nerfing of Clok profession skills!"), which I'm sure makes people want to talk to you. You kvetch on the boards. It's clear that you don't like being here, so why are you here? Go play something else. Maybe you'll find something you'll enjoy or, at the very least, you'll find some perspective.

"Because I've played other MU*s and it makes me like CLOK that much more. It makes me appreciate that Rias and the other GMs are approachable and sane, instead of dysfunctional or socially maladjusted like most MU* staffers and players. And I really don't appreciate you or anyone else trying to change that because you have entitlement issues. You aren't owed anything. CLOK is Rias's hobby that we're all fortunate enough to enjoy. He and the other GMs put in hours of work while you're spending hours screwing around, and most of the time they don't get anything out of it. Honestly, I wish they'd be more possessive with their toys and start booting people who make them or others miserable. You have no right to be here. It's a privilege."

While I found the last two paragraphs in Elystole's message quite harsh (I didn't post them here), I have to agree with the rest. I'm not going to character attack, but I will express concern for this overly critical attitude. It makes me very anxious around people who are like this because I never know what's going to make them fly off the handle, and honestly, if I were a GM, I wouldn't deal with it, I'd let someone else do that job.

The changelog question has likely already been answered, so I won't ask the question again. I'll keep reading.

I have been on games whre admins have banded together into their own little clique, been the highest-powered chars in the whole mud, and basically been domineering asses to anyone who disagreed with or got in their way. It was abuse of power. It was abuse of everything a true game admin should do. And let's not forget game admins who would use NPC chars to fix things so their own chars never, ever had to deal with the law or any other consequences for their actions. In a sense, double standards to the max, and I have left that game. I don't miss it. Certainly not enough to go back.
So Elystole, thank you. The admins here are actually fun to chat with, not intimidating, and actually care about balancing things in the game for its players.

Skah and Drayla, agreed.

I second Gad's request for some sort of headpiece with a light. How would people have mined back in the day, though? I don't known. I haven't researched. Possibly in the dark. But I feel that a head light would be reasonable. Me, I just put lanterns on the ground.

In a nutshell, I wouldn't have thought about the armor thing. NOw that I'm aware of it, it's 100% obvious, but since 1. I've never touched or held real armor, I don't know what it looks like, 2. I've never mined so I don't know what's involved entirely, and 3. some things just don't click in my brain... I didn't know. Now I do. And I'm actually glad you said something, Rithiel, because it's better for me to know than to guess.

And it's always better, Clayton, to ask questions than snap or get sarcastic with people. I think the others are right about you needing perspective. I don't think you realize just how good you have it here.

I could say a lot more to Zoiya's post, but to keep this civil, and so people don't hate me forever, I won't, except to say to her, "I hear you. Loud and clear."

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