Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

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Fayne
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Fayne » Wed May 13, 2015 7:51 pm

I have to agree with Elystole about Corvus. It really has no redeeming qualities other than living there is basically getting the "I'm evil" badge sewn onto your sash. I have a character who is in Corvus, and I found it very lackluster when I first visited. It's ugly and run-down, the shops are about as limited in what they sell as the average hamlet (though they have more shops than the average hamlet), and there are even places you can go that will get you killed, and the only way to figure that out is to be told by another Corvite (unlikely) or go get killed or nearly killed. Corvus should be what an evil character aims for because it grants them access to a network or something that helps them out. Instead, joining Corvus is more of a handicap than anything. Personally, I'd like to see Corvus become a nicer place that anyone can enter as long as they are not friendly with or living in Shadgard. I'd like orvus and Shadgard to be mutually exclusive, but if you are neutral to both, you can enter both, but you won't be treated as warmly as an actual citizen or ally. I'd also like to see some minorly infested join the ranks of the Corvus Outpost. Why? Because I picture Corvus as the place of misfits, not necessarily criminals. Yes, criminals would be welcomed, but the ones who openly murder and kill would be treated worse, or at least be kept under watch. I think people who are tainted, infected, or canim would turn to Corvus, since they would have nowhere else to go, and in turn, I think Corvus would be very accepting of pretty much anyone, basically the opposite of Shadgard, who is going to turn down and spit on anyone who isn't normal.

Now, as for evil characters, my original idea for Fayne was to be a fairly chaotic evil character. However, I was never aware if my idea was something I could even achieve, or anything. Even if I couldn't achieve what I wanted, it would have been nice to have gotten an email or PM or something telling me to go ahead and play it out, because it would get acknowledged. I think Fayne is more chaotic neutral now, close to chaotic good, but still more concerned about herself than what's actually right. However, I know it would still help me now to know that the goals I pursue are acknowledged and I'm not just spinning my wheels.

Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Kunren
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Kunren » Wed May 13, 2015 8:39 pm

Fayne wrote:I have to agree with Elystole about Corvus. It really has no redeeming qualities other than living there is basically getting the "I'm evil" badge sewn onto your sash. I have a character who is in Corvus, and I found it very lackluster when I first visited. It's ugly and run-down, the shops are about as limited in what they sell as the average hamlet (though they have more shops than the average hamlet), and there are even places you can go that will get you killed, and the only way to figure that out is to be told by another Corvite (unlikely) or go get killed or nearly killed. Corvus should be what an evil character aims for because it grants them access to a network or something that helps them out. Instead, joining Corvus is more of a handicap than anything. Personally, I'd like to see Corvus become a nicer place that anyone can enter as long as they are not friendly with or living in Shadgard. I'd like orvus and Shadgard to be mutually exclusive, but if you are neutral to both, you can enter both, but you won't be treated as warmly as an actual citizen or ally. I'd also like to see some minorly infested join the ranks of the Corvus Outpost. Why? Because I picture Corvus as the place of misfits, not necessarily criminals. Yes, criminals would be welcomed, but the ones who openly murder and kill would be treated worse, or at least be kept under watch. I think people who are tainted, infected, or canim would turn to Corvus, since they would have nowhere else to go, and in turn, I think Corvus would be very accepting of pretty much anyone, basically the opposite of Shadgard, who is going to turn down and spit on anyone who isn't normal.

Now, as for evil characters, my original idea for Fayne was to be a fairly chaotic evil character. However, I was never aware if my idea was something I could even achieve, or anything. Even if I couldn't achieve what I wanted, it would have been nice to have gotten an email or PM or something telling me to go ahead and play it out, because it would get acknowledged. I think Fayne is more chaotic neutral now, close to chaotic good, but still more concerned about herself than what's actually right. However, I know it would still help me now to know that the goals I pursue are acknowledged and I'm not just spinning my wheels.

Anyway, that's my two cents.
Corvus is already accepting of every one. Corvus was invented as a save Haven for those who the world hated, though nowadays joining is pretty much just waving your team evil flag. I really wish the world was harsh enough towards people that they have to join Corvus to survive, but it just doesn't seem that way to me. I can't really see Elys point happening too well. A mob city is far too orderly for Corvus. Sure maybe there should be a bit more structure, but the kind of people willful enough to run away from most of civilization to work on what society may consider unethical things is not going to ever be really nice or peaceful, even seemingly so. They won't accept order very easily. Or I could be completely wrong and going in a weird direction like i apparently was with the church earlier :(
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Solaje
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Solaje » Wed May 13, 2015 9:33 pm

So, a couple of things. First, to Rias: as the flower-requester, no hard feelings. Everyone has bad days. Glad to hear Clok can support a villain that cares about the roses in the courtyard. I haven't felt unsupported in that- I noticed that daisy.

I haven't really been back long enough to feel unsupported in anything really, other than the fact that we need more PCs in Corvus. So I guess this thread is mainly for people who have been playing evil characters a long time and are burned out. As a new(ly reactivated), unburned-out character, a lot of my observations don't really count.

I do agree with Kiyaani's post about needing to team up with the evil NPCs, only because our population is so low. It's hard to have a team of 2-3 against 15 or so good characters. I tend to be pretty content to play my character and develop her based on what happens with other PCs, but a big dramatic storyline sounds great.

Elystole- Under Lythwer (sp?) the Outpost looked great. Roses, great danes- it was lovely. There were some evil characters that didn't like that and some that did. The Outpost under Winston looks different because (I assume) he's a different kind of evil. At the meetings we've been having, it seems like most people RP their darker characters to not care about outward appearances.

I think that's it.

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Solaje
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Solaje » Wed May 13, 2015 9:44 pm

No, that isn't it. I also wanted to apologize for saying those meetings in Corvus have been going nowhere fast, it was rude. I just meant that I wish more people would show up and stay to further all our evil and not so evil schemes. I have had fun with everyone that's been there.

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Noctere
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Noctere » Wed May 13, 2015 10:58 pm

A few quick thoughts.

#1 Please know that we do appreciate it when you send e-mails to us. We -DO- get them and we -DO- read them but sometimes real life permitting and sometimes for in character reasons, we may not always respond.

#2 Many times we wait and see if you stick with a character concept and wait to see that it is not just a "flavor of the month" idea before we dedicate any real GM investment on that character. I recommend really playing the character, avoid alt swapping, and really developing the concept. Unless the idea is against the world lore you don't really need any GM acknowledgment to move forward. Just do your thing and if you find it fun... keep doing it and eventually we will catch on and probably support you with it.

#3 You don't need to be part of Corvus to be evil. There are many shades of evil and sometimes your brand of evil may not align with the goals of the outpost. The reason why the outpost was created in the first place was as a safe haven from oppression and a place to supply such pariah. CLOK's first evil villian 'Jaren' lived in a time when it was almost impossible to live without a supporting town for food, supplies and training. Now that is not the case but the outpost still exists to that end and also offers a small community of like minded characters.

#4 Please be patient with us. Often times we will plan a secret event based upon a series of GM requests or e-mails but we may not get around to that idea for a long time and often by the time we do... the players have already lost interest and feel that nobody loves them and the GMs didn't do anything to support them. /sigh This is why I keep telling players to have fun with what their character is NOW and not hope for some future guild inclusion or faction involvement or GM acknowledgment to do so. It's ok to plan your character with that in mind in the future but your enjoyment should not hinge on it.

#5 Being evil is hard. Do you like being excluded from some events? Do you like being shunned? Do you like fighting large groups of good players all by yourself? Do you like your in character actions sometimes being taken OOC'ly by others? Do you like a very small community that if often not logged on? Do you like intentionally losing to the benefit of everyone's RP? If you answered "no" to any of these then being a true evil character may not be for you.

#6 Is Corvus like a badge or stamp that says, "I'm evil!"? You know, in some ways, it is. You can easily be evil without joining the outpost. In fact, we have other guilds and factions that are "pure evil" that are not directly related with Corvus. Oh, sure they may have some ties to them like the outriders do with the thieves guild but they are not one and the same. So if we see you are playing toward one of those other "things" then after some time we may decide that your character is a worthy candidate for that and introduce an RP event where you will have a chance to join up.

#7 Are all Corvites 100% evil?... No. As many have said, Corvus is a safe haven for tainted, afflicted, diseased, infected, canim, outlaws, necromancers and many other "fun" individuals shunned by general society. Of course, Winston asks that all those granted citizenship should obey the rule of law and funny enough the "rule of law" is also Winston's will... whatever that may be. But generally it means don't cause problems for the town and do what is best for the town AND do what Winston tells you to do, when called upon.

Anything else that I should address? Please keep the questions respectful or I may choose not to answer.
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Thatcher
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Thatcher » Thu May 14, 2015 8:57 am

I haven't made a name for myself yet but I'm looking forward to it if I ever do. I like my character idea even if nobody but GMs will probably ever know the primary goal of it. I don't think my character is pure evil but he's definitely bad and willing to do evil things if they're for his own good or even amusement.

I like Corvus how it is. You don't have to be there to play a bad or evil character. There is Mistral and Haiban for people who don't want to have the Corvus stamp. I feel like Corvus is there for people who are bad and don't care who knows it. They can be accepted and be safe there as long as they don't make Winston mad.

Here is a question for Noctere: Does Corvus have a government other than Winston? Like if we want to talk about small time town improvements who would we talk to? Winston, one of the dreadnaughts, an underlord or aid of some kind? Winston might not want to be disturbed with little things like these but someone else might be in charge of them to keep the population of the outpost content if not happy, so the population is maintained.

I don't need to be constantly doing things that change the town but it would be nice to restore some of the ruins a little bit and make Corvus more like a town and less like a hamlet. It seems like the perfect fixer upper. When there isn't a huge good vs evil war or an evil agenda from on high to do, we can focus on the little things that are hopefully easy.

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Kiyaani
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Kiyaani » Thu May 14, 2015 9:26 am

As a props to some of the things that have happened so far that were very encouraging since Thatcher brought up restoration. I just want to point out that player-driven restorations HAVE been made in the past. The place used to be much more of a dump under Sceptus' rule. It was crumbling, nasty, smelled etc. Several players worked hard to get the outpost a face-lift and were mostly successful under Lythwer. With changing management come changing themes and plans for the place and it's sometimes hard to conform your ideas as a player to the GM and NPC ideas for the outpost. Since Winston's time there have been a few concessions as well and at least one really awesome event (though more are always appreciated!).

See the Under New Management - What Corvites Need thread for details: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=2188

Not everything asked for is given and some things not in that thread were done. The daisy is a nice touch more recently. Most of this stuff isn't going to help people be more evil, but it does help the 'evil' people get invested and improves loyalty. So thanks for what's happened so far. I look forward to future stuff and the continued fight for expanded outfitting as well :)

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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Thatcher » Thu May 14, 2015 9:33 am

Kiyaani wrote:Most of this stuff isn't going to help people be more evil, but it does help the 'evil' people get invested and improves loyalty.
I agree, I think these little things can go a real long way.

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Acarin
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Acarin » Thu May 14, 2015 2:20 pm

Rias wrote:
Konrad wrote:Asking for 'Extra powers' seems to be against the spirit of CLOK, where everyone has to work hard for whatever they have, but that's just me.
I would have denied any such requests; I was just wondering what people wanted specifically when asking for more support.
Perhaps, may I suggest instead of new powers, taking action to ensure that the current abilities of those who are evil aren't compromised almost entirely by those given to good. What I would really like to see as support is more infrastructure... names placed on the kill board that are considered legitimate marks... some system for leniency or at least anonymity when causing horrible atrocities instead of "just don't get seen at all" because we all know that's not possible. Maybe not kick people out of towns they have taken care to maintain a good reputation with for things committed far outside the town? This is what I mean by support. It's difficult to be evil. When the staff decides to knaw away at the things that make evil being tolerable/fun, it becomes "unsupported." You can support it by not taking actions to get rid of it, and minimizing the impact of mechanical decisions that are made.

As a long time evil character, I've enjoyed the myths created by other players about my epic exploits, however these often become OOC attacks on motivation for actions. I'm really not fond of these. I'm playing a character and whether you like the character or not, people need to realize that this is a game and not be personally offended when I off them for saying something I dislike during rp. One thing I want to point out is that if you start challenging and insulting a voice in the shadows, and acting like you're brave and invincible, or ignoring their frequent threats, warnings, suggestions that you run before attacking, don't complain about policy violations when you get killed. Sorry, but players of evil characters like rp too. It's easier to just not deal with the whining than to play.

I've certainly had some "unjustified" kills as Acarin, and I've been warned about them in the past. That's long over with. What makes me feel like I can't play an evil character anymore is that my decision on how to act is basically being made for me. When the GMs assume that something is an unjustified kill or that I'm not allowed into particular areas without asking about my rationale for doing it, they may miss the reason for that action entirely or make rather insulting assumptions. I've also passed up killing numerous individuals who did not trigger Acarin's anger and had some great and really creepy rp, so it's not like I sit there and wait for someone to kill when I play Acarin. Overall, it becomes easier to just not do anything at all and not deal with what often comes across to me as whining about motivations people know nothing about. Then mechanic imbalance comes into play as well (purity, unjustified town banishments, the new justice system with incapacitaton, etc.)

I'm honestly a bit tired of this whole you must be "subtle evil" thing that everyone keeps going on about. Some people are just murderous, angry, and easy to provoke. Some people are just straight psychopaths. I would like to be able to play one and there's nothing wrong with that route. I shouldn't be forced into Kiyaani's particular brand of conflicted evil or Skah's brand of plausible deniability. ALL evil should be supported (as in not frowned upon and constantly nerfed or penalized and insulted in an OOC fashion). You all have your tastes as to what makes evil. Don't complain about mine or Golyat's as an example. I don't complain about your rp.

Some events that actually have a conclusion would be nice too. So far, everything I've participated in lately as Acarin has failed to conclude and just become forgotten.

Sorry if this seems a bit angry. I'm rather frustrated with the current situation.

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Kunren
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Kunren » Thu May 14, 2015 3:03 pm

The thing is, that kind of character is what executions were invented for. People unapologetically axe-crazy,extremely powerful, and unkillable are very hard to deal with. Without being able to kill you, all the average populace can do is shun you. Subtle evil give you the ability to move far more freely, because even those who actually know what you are like can trust you to keep the bare minimum of civility with others, if only to save their own skin. The kind of character you are talking about can't be allowed into towns, because he's not even safe to speak with no matter who or where you are. Corvus provides a helpful place for such characters to live, because it's a home of monsters. There may be a limit there though. Does Corvus allow mindless infested to roam their streets? Because that is basically a parallel to what you are describing with Acarin(though Acarin is obviously much more intelligent and can make decisions and all that jazz, the fact that the vast majority of his decisions end up with violent death makes the point a bit moot.
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Fayne » Thu May 14, 2015 4:07 pm

Acarin really isn't all that crazy if your character isn't insanely and stupidly ballsy. I had a character who made a few deals with him, and had a few intelligent conversations with him, amd she wasn't evil at all. I have another character who would gladly work with him if he asked, and he's not openly evil. That's why I've always defended Acarin, because he really isn't just a mindless murder machine, there is actually method to his madness.
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Elystole
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Elystole » Thu May 14, 2015 4:52 pm

Acarin wrote:I'm honestly a bit tired of this whole you must be "subtle evil" thing that everyone keeps going on about. Some people are just murderous, angry, and easy to provoke. Some people are just straight psychopaths. I would like to be able to play one and there's nothing wrong with that route. I shouldn't be forced into Kiyaani's particular brand of conflicted evil or Skah's brand of plausible deniability. ALL evil should be supported (as in not frowned upon and constantly nerfed or penalized and insulted in an OOC fashion). You all have your tastes as to what makes evil. Don't complain about mine or Golyat's as an example. I don't complain about your rp.
There's a fine line between psychopathic RP and griefing with a thin veneer of "RP" to try and justify it. I haven't had enough interaction with Acarin to say one way or another, but I would unhesitatingly call Golyat a griefer who made the game worse with his behavior. Much of that has to do with NPCs that were murdered for no reason beyond "I'm crazy and like to kill things." Many of those NPCs don't come back and the game is poorer for their lack.
Rias ([url=http://bbs.contrarium.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3337&p=p17927#p17927]in this thread[/url]) wrote:While on the subject, this is why I often prefer not to put, for instance, shopkeepers in the room as actual NPCs. Cause what's the first thing Martin the Malicious is gonna do to prove the world he's hardcore? Kill a defenseless shopkeeper. Baby steps, right? Gotta start somewhere. Show these people you're for realsies evil and there's no low you won't stoop to - you'd kill a baby if there were baby NPCs in the game, but a shopkeeper is the closest thing you could find.

So now, oh joy. I have to change the shopkeeper name in the order dialogue, possibly change the name of the shop, possibly remove the shop (if its existence depended on the shopkeeper's expertise/specialty), discard any backstory and potential event/lore/rumors/etc. involvement for that NPC, and most likely come up with a replacement. Cause someone wanted to be supercool (or "funny") and kill a random NPC.

A GM other than myself put Relena in the Shadgard General Store at some point not too long ago. I had intentionally left her out (as an actual NPC in the room) for the reasons above, but eh, I figured we'd see what happened.

She's been killed by PCs three times since then, I believe it is. None of them had any specific reasons that I could ever discern; it was just that she was there, I guess. I think I've just decided Relena is one of those few people like PCs who can be resurrected or something, because I don't want to give up her backstory/lore/involvement in the town/etc. But it proved my fear.

Want music training? Go ask the bardess in the Mummer's Camp. Oh wait, she was killed a few days after she arrived there. Why? Beats me. I think the PC may have looted her clothes or something. Then just walked off and went about her business as if she hadn't just murdered someone in cold blood and looted their corpse.
Quite frankly, if that is someone's idea of "evil" then I don't want them to play.

Another reason that people recommend being more subtle is because it seems like people try to be "in your face" evil, don't like the consequences, and leave. A more subtle approach is more likely to produce results that include that player or character sticking around. They are also more likely to accomplish their goals.

A MUD or two ago I played the only vampire, the only kill-on-sight evil character, on the game, and the dark god who kept my character's soul from passing on demanded regular human blood sacrifice. Animal blood would make my character violently ill. This inevitably lead to my being discovered and every character on the game, including veterans and NPCs much stronger than myself, forming a mob to hunt me down. Whenever I died I spent days or weeks in "timeout" while my soul searched for my body and put it back together. One time I was in the Void for a few days until staff asked me to log back in and my character woke up just to find himself tied to a pyre and surrounded by good PCs holding torches. I got to RP being burned alive then spent another three weeks in the Void while I regenerated from the ashes they dumped in the sea.

I learned to be sneaky - while avoiding sunlight, holy symbols (even prayers would make my character start to itch as he could feel the gods searching for him), and certain materials. Otherwise I didn't play.

And then I ritually sacrificed the MUD owner's character (without knowing it was her) and terrified another character to the point that she killed herself rather than see what my character had in store for her.
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Noctere » Thu May 14, 2015 6:18 pm

Thatcher wrote:Here is a question for Noctere: Does Corvus have a government other than Winston? Like if we want to talk about small time town improvements who would we talk to? Winston, one of the dreadnaughts, an underlord or aid of some kind? Winston might not want to be disturbed with little things like these but someone else might be in charge of them to keep the population of the outpost content if not happy, so the population is maintained.
Sort of, yes. Winston has many aids that handle his correspondence so he tends not to read letters himself but the information is gathered and presented to him in a daily brief, so he does know important things such as potential allies/enemies and any major concerns. Often, he will then send his spies to gather more info and report back. So go ahead and send any IC letter you wish to him and if it is something that needs to be addressed, he will. In truth Winston has little care for town beatification and would rather devote funds to defense and research. If people are unhappy of living in a well guarded slum then they are free to face the cruel cruel world outside the walls. This does not of course mean that people are prohibited from improving and beatifying their own homes, if they can afford it. It also does not mean that Winston turns a blind eye but rather you should probably turn the request to something that better suits his interests. He is evil after all. FYI: Much of this info is rather OOC so please keep it that way.

In truth, Corvus was always meant to be a run down military outpost but if you think about it, most player needs are met there, we have stores, trainers and even a pub to drink the night away so it's not like the populace is suffering.

Acarin wrote:I'm honestly a bit tired of this whole you must be "subtle evil" thing that everyone keeps going on about. Some people are just murderous, angry, and easy to provoke. Some people are just straight psychopaths. I would like to be able to play one and there's nothing wrong with that route. I shouldn't be forced into Kiyaani's particular brand of conflicted evil or Skah's brand of plausible deniability. ALL evil should be supported (as in not frowned upon and constantly nerfed or penalized and insulted in an OOC fashion). You all have your tastes as to what makes evil. Don't complain about mine or Golyat's as an example. I don't complain about your rp.
Frankly, I think the game needs more openly evil characters. Be the lonewolf, be proud of what you are, don't care what others think and shape your own path. I often like to refer to the old D&D alignment chart to understand the different types of evil. Corvus as a whole should be regarded as a Lawful Evil town. Similar to the organization of a mob or crime syndicate. It is true that we do very evil things, but we are respectful enough of our law to work as a group. What you are referring to is "Chaotic Evil". This brand of evil is often the psychopath or wild sentient monster. They care very little for others or laws of any kind and would easily kill someone just because they were bored. The latter type of evil carries with it a huge set of consequences and you should probably get used to being a complete lonewolf character and being shunned from most civilized areas. If that is something you would like to play then you are more than welcome to do so but that does not mean that you can go around and kill new players for the fun of it or use it as an excuse to harass others.
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Acarin » Fri May 15, 2015 8:14 am

Noctere wrote:If that is something you would like to play then you are more than welcome to do so but that does not mean that you can go around and kill new players for the fun of it or use it as an excuse to harass others.
And this is the biggest reason why I feel evil and this type of character is not supported. Acarin has quite a bit of depth (a LOT more than the vast majority of good characters). He has a rich backstory and very interesting history in game that has shaped his reactions. There is a motivation for all his kills and I do not do perform that lightly. I will say that he often used to scout for new talent... people that he could use for various tasks and information gathering. As he has already assessed most older players and has a good idea where they stand, his targets would often be newer players. If they showed resistance, rudeness, or openly challenged him, yes... things could get nasty and they could die. These players were all warned prior to attacks to run or something else... They all knew as I spoke to them from the shadows that there was considerable potential for danger and that they should be careful. I feel that he was justified in murdering anyone who made a rp decision to stand up to Acarin, threaten him, or otherwise try to order him around. He's not the type of man that gets challenged or threatened and walks away unless it is in his best interest or he feels he can't win (better to retreat and surprise attack later on). GMs STATING THAT I AM HARASSING OTHER PLAYERS WITHOUT FULLY ASSESSING THE SITUATION AND MAYBE ASKING ME WHAT THE SERIES OF EVENTS/RATIONALE THAT LED UP TO THIS KILL MEANS THAT THIS TYPE OF CHARACTER IS FULLY UNSUPPORTED. That is my major complaint. I don't like the mechanical issues that have arisen but this, in particular, makes me not want to play this character. How about a little bit of support realizing that this character type is hard to play instead of making it more difficult. Read Fayne's last post. I have no idea who her alts are but they seem to have had good experiences.

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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Fayne » Fri May 15, 2015 9:06 am

Acarin, the alt that I feel comfortable mentioning is Drayla, you'll remember all the interactions her and Acarin had.
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Acarin » Fri May 15, 2015 10:02 am

Kunren wrote:The thing is, that kind of character is what executions were invented for. People unapologetically axe-crazy,extremely powerful, and unkillable are very hard to deal with. Without being able to kill you, all the average populace can do is shun you. Subtle evil give you the ability to move far more freely, because even those who actually know what you are like can trust you to keep the bare minimum of civility with others, if only to save their own skin. The kind of character you are talking about can't be allowed into towns, because he's not even safe to speak with no matter who or where you are. Corvus provides a helpful place for such characters to live, because it's a home of monsters. There may be a limit there though. Does Corvus allow mindless infested to roam their streets? Because that is basically a parallel to what you are describing with Acarin(though Acarin is obviously much more intelligent and can make decisions and all that jazz, the fact that the vast majority of his decisions end up with violent death makes the point a bit moot.
I would suggest that you interact with Acarin if you feel that I am describing mindless killing. He is by no means a mindless killer and the very vast majority of his interactions do not result in a kill. He has even openly teamed up with church members for a chance achieve his ends, and I'll share that he is actually, suprisingly somewhat confliced. I see him as a bit of a wounded animal. He carries a deep rage over what has happened in the past and subconscious regret over the path that he wrongdully sees as being forced upon him by the church. His anger and jealousy has clouded his inner light and what was once good albeit seemingly creepy intentions have been replaced with defensiveness and an obsession with revenge, no matter who is hurt. He sees himself now as a hero, taking up a cause that he feels others are blind to. He views the church and shadgard as hypocrites and truly evil... and honestly doesnt understand the difference between his means and theirs. Over time his views have become twisted in his mind, and he fails to understand the difference between right and wrong to the point where murder feels right to him (yes, he enjoys it now). He only trusts his instincts now... hope this sheds a bit of light on his motivations. While he may seem to some as an indiscrimate killer, he is certainly not that. I may post his IC story if I get around to writing it soon. It may shed some light on some of the choices he has made.

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Elystole
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Elystole » Fri May 15, 2015 5:38 pm

Acarin, I just want to say that as an aggressive, violent character on the other side of the Shadgard/Corvus divide, I have had my kills questioned. Both by GMs and PCs, IC and OOC, privately and on the boards. Hell, someone started a thread for it.

One habit that I have is to report my kills with an email to the GMs. Well, mostly Rias since he is the Outrider guru and I saw most of Elystole's kills as him working, but I think a bit of self-reporting cuts these problems off. What triggered the kill, what I was thinking, how I think it went down, etc. I also like to use the 'think' command to record why Elystole's trigger finger is getting itchy especially if the situation up to that point has been relatively peaceful. It also alerts any active GMs who might want to watch. In all likelihood, staff hears about what I've done from me before anyone can complain. A simple "think This guy is going to get cut if he doesn't start showing some respect" and a quick copy-paste afterwards might save you a lot of headache.
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

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Kunren
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Kunren » Sat May 16, 2015 1:05 am

Acarin wrote:
Kunren wrote:The thing is, that kind of character is what executions were invented for. People unapologetically axe-crazy,extremely powerful, and unkillable are very hard to deal with. Without being able to kill you, all the average populace can do is shun you. Subtle evil give you the ability to move far more freely, because even those who actually know what you are like can trust you to keep the bare minimum of civility with others, if only to save their own skin. The kind of character you are talking about can't be allowed into towns, because he's not even safe to speak with no matter who or where you are. Corvus provides a helpful place for such characters to live, because it's a home of monsters. There may be a limit there though. Does Corvus allow mindless infested to roam their streets? Because that is basically a parallel to what you are describing with Acarin(though Acarin is obviously much more intelligent and can make decisions and all that jazz, the fact that the vast majority of his decisions end up with violent death makes the point a bit moot.
I would suggest that you interact with Acarin if you feel that I am describing mindless killing. He is by no means a mindless killer and the very vast majority of his interactions do not result in a kill. He has even openly teamed up with church members for a chance achieve his ends, and I'll share that he is actually, suprisingly somewhat confliced. I see him as a bit of a wounded animal. He carries a deep rage over what has happened in the past and subconscious regret over the path that he wrongdully sees as being forced upon him by the church. His anger and jealousy has clouded his inner light and what was once good albeit seemingly creepy intentions have been replaced with defensiveness and an obsession with revenge, no matter who is hurt. He sees himself now as a hero, taking up a cause that he feels others are blind to. He views the church and shadgard as hypocrites and truly evil... and honestly doesnt understand the difference between his means and theirs. Over time his views have become twisted in his mind, and he fails to understand the difference between right and wrong to the point where murder feels right to him (yes, he enjoys it now). He only trusts his instincts now... hope this sheds a bit of light on his motivations. While he may seem to some as an indiscrimate killer, he is certainly not that. I may post his IC story if I get around to writing it soon. It may shed some light on some of the choices he has made.
Ive actually spoken with Acarin, he seemed interesting and certainly not mindless, (though fricken scary), I didn't base my earlier post on my own interactions with Acarin, it was more commentary on how you described him at first in this thread. Now that you have exposed more depth, he certainly seems an intriguing character. I advise taking Elystoles advice though, as a character of such twisted morality is very inner-centric RP wise. A quick mail to a GM would ease matters, and help them understand the reasons behind the actions.
Life is like a box of chocolates. The caramel filled ones are the best.

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Acarin
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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Acarin » Sat May 16, 2015 12:06 pm

Maybe that is a solution, but I find the need to justify all my actions with the think command or with a followup email to be a bit stifling. I dont play to be constantly on my guard and defending what I'm doing. I shouldnt feel like I have to do the equivalent to lawyering up. If this is what is required, instead of a discussion after the event if there is a problem, I'd rather not play the character as it ceases to be fun. Following several kills I feel I was justified in making, I've been met with what I felt were fairly hostile accusations or penalties that did not seem to me to be justified (ie killed bu Shar with an excuse that I found out by OOC means was not justified). So in the end, this is what I mean by support. Good characters dont have to justify all their actions in advance. They certainly can if they want to but its not a requirement.

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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Lun » Sun May 17, 2015 7:25 am

I find that overall, the dichotomy of good and evil in this game is heavily dictated by the playerbase. It's just that there are a lot more good aligned people than chaos aligned! Which isn't a problem in of itself, but then we have the interpersonal issues between the chaotic aligned players as well, so it's not like every good team vs bad team, it's more like good team vs bad guy 1, vs bad guy 2, vs bad guy 3.

Give it some time and I feel as if our player base will shift to chaotic tendencies.

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Re: Game Design: Good & Evil Choices

Post by Vinz » Sun May 17, 2015 7:39 am

This has a lot to do with players being a part of organizations and them dealing blows to their opposition. our bad guy teams tend to bicker and not agree (like in the normal world) and so thus arent are problem for the most part. its only when people organize and decide to act in unison does the world feel the impact. it would be the same way if things were flipped. so if bad folks want to make an impact? start grouping it, stop your own inner conflict and deal a blow to the world at large.
-*- GM Vinz -*-
Haite says, " ...Diamonds are also hard, really really freaking hard."

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