Razing Emleth

User avatar
Elystole
Member
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:08 pm

Razing Emleth

Post by Elystole » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:22 pm

I debated where to post this: Does it belong in Player-Organized Events since the PCs are taking the lead? But that forum seems better suited for announcements and this started as a GM event. It's just gone off the rails. There's been a lot of IC discussion leading up to this point, but I thought that the severity of the in-game consequences warranted an OOC discussion. I also think it's worth discussing how we got here in the first place, and I want the community to see that this isn't just me being bullheaded. So if you're one of the players that I've discussed this with ICly or OOCly, please chime in.

I doubt this is the direction that the GMs wanted this event to take. We can even talk about how Elystole screwed everything up when he shot the kid - and if you look at my post from that day I said that I wasn't sure if he did the right thing but it is what he thought was right given the situation. I think most experienced gamers and GMs can tell you a story about the time the party did something that made sense but also completely derailed the plot. Sometimes the PCs make things more difficult for themselves.

The problem is that the GMs seem to still want us to retake Emleth, but the PCs are looking at an unwinnable fight and saying, "Screw that." I knew we were in trouble the first day when I had to clear the platforms repeatedly because the archers kept respawning. It was really bad the second time around when no matter how hard we fought or how many infested we killed, they kept getting stronger and stronger. I stood there outside the path and killed three progressively stronger waves until the GMs finally threw something at me to make me bolt. We managed to get organized and started pushing into the town, but then we ran into a group of especially difficult mobs, got slaughtered, and I spent much of the evening being dead. Or as Rias told me, "Infested got wise that moving in to get slaughtered wasn't working, and set up their own defensive point to await encroaching forces' arrival." Later I heard there was a massacre that spilled out into the surrounding area, and I was mopping up stray mobs (like a bowman on the road) after I came back. Some of those bodies we only got back because the mobs dragged them out.

Since then things have only gotten worse. There's more infested, more dangerous infested, mobs some of us haven't even seen before, permanent defenses, and everything we killed respawned. If the previous fight was unwinnable, the upcoming fight would be even more so. To turn that quote around, "PCs got wise that moving in to get slaughtered isn't going to work, so they want to burn the defensive points down."

Now, I'm actually not opposed to "unwinnable" fights. They are good for encouraging players to start thinking laterally instead of simply walking in and going toe-to-toe with everything. The problem that I am seeing is that it looks like we are getting pushback from the GMs. The PCs got their butts handed to them, watched the situation get worse, and are now saying, "Alright. We won't just walk in and try to fight the infested head-on." What we are hearing from the staff through the refugees and Tse Gaiyan NPCs is that the GMs want us to walk in there and slug it out anyways.

As a few PCs have told me both ICly and OOCly, we aren't keen on getting massacred in a pointless fight. We simply don't have the players to win that fight. They aren't active enough, they aren't skilled enough, and they aren't coordinated enough. So we have to go about things from a different angle and when you're facing a tougher, more skilled, more numerous enemy in a fortified position, you have two choices: Burn them in or draw them out. Since they'd probably mop the floor with us on the open road and endanger everyone around us, we're going with burn them in.

We're going to raze Emleth.

I've been trying to coordinate this ICly since the second fight. Elystole's current spat with Tse Gaiyan came out of his trying to speak with them about protecting the forest and soothing the Gaea while we cut down a bunch of trees for a firebreak. Other PCs have suggested this course of action on their own. So let's coordinate how we proceed from here.

Clearing the firebreak is something that could be started immediately. A league is generally considered to be three miles (and Selene seemed to think the same thing when she told me that the refugee camp was six miles away), so is it enough if we log the wilderness room that Emleth is in? Firebreaks don't even need to be that wide to be effective, and it'll be even more effective if we dig a trough. Can we just have PCs go to town with axes, shovels, and pickaxes?

The elemancers have been talking about some non-standard elemancy to control the fire. Besides the immediate effects of pyromancers lighting things on fire, they were talking about aeromancers guiding the flames inward, hydromancers dousing the surrounding foliage, and geomancers helping with the firebreak or smothering fires. What goes into that?

When do we want to do this? This isn't a small undertaking, so the more PCs that are involved the better. We'll need people fighting to keep the infested contained lest they try to break out once they are wise to our plans. Is it possible for us to build our own fortifications outside of Emleth to bottle them in?

This isn't going to be pretty, and I don't think this is how anyone wanted this plot to go. But this is the way it is going because of how things have happened.
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

Sneaky
Member
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:43 am

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Sneaky » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:59 am

From a player stand point this whole event makes it look like the GMs want us to lose if we fight them head on, but everything I'm hearing IC leads me to believe that we're suppose to fight within Emleth anyway. We've cleared Emleth out several times already and it really looks like if we were to win this next fight, that more would just take their place, which in turn makes me, as a player, think that we're suppose to come up with another way to win. That's fine and all, but to do something else we would need GM support. We can't just emote burning a place to the ground all willy nilly and it magically happen. Things like this have to be GM approved. We can talk about burning it down all day, we can even emote setting the fires and doing whatever is required to burn a place down, but at the end of the day the only ones who can support it are the GMs. We can't know what the solution is suppose to be, and so we're left coming up with ideas like this and then they're rejected, and the players are left frustrated as they are now. Well, I am at least.
From an IC perspective, this hamlet is unredeemable. It once was a more populated town, I'm guessing with hundreds of people living there. If I was told correctly, there's only about 40 surviving refugees. That's not enough to form a sustainable community. There's gotta be hunters, farmers, healers, people to make clothing, and not to mention all the guard duty after something like this. To rebuild the town all while under enemy attack, just to probably lose it afterwards and give them an even more defensable position is unreasonable. It all makes much more sense to burn the place with all of the infested to the ground, and move the refugees to another city. I understand we're suppose to suspend our reality and what not for situations like this, but after raiding them has failed, and after dying about a dozen times in organized groups, this whole situation is fustrating, both as a player, and as a character.
We're getting mixed signals, we go in one direction then something happens to discourage us from going down that path, so we try something else and again we're discouraged. Pretty soon we're all out of options, except die repeatedly, so what are we suppose to do. I understand that we're not going to win every fight, but I'm being lead as a player and a character to believe that we're suppose to on this occasion, and unfortunately the burning of Emleth seems a reasonable solution.
I'd really like to know what the people who are running this thing think about the players attitude towards this whole situation, and to know if they believe we're headed in the right direction or not. I'd also like to hear of any insight they can provide for us to help guide us towards the best solution because maybe there's something we're overlooking. Though maybe going in with 30 players and just wrecking everything was the invisioned solution to begin with. It is impossible for me to tell.
[FROM Liani (OOC)]: It's an ice cream conehead
You also notice a bronze crossbow bolt (x8) and the corpse of a slender pale white cave drakolin.

User avatar
Alaia
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:39 am
Location: ME, USA
Contact:

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Alaia » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:09 am

I'd say it probably belongs in Player-Organized Events, just because this is a PC-created thing and so far the NPCs I've seen involved haven't sanctioned or wanted it to occur. I can't say I blame you; it is easier to take the "easy way" out and just burn down a forest (which can happen, regardless of the firebreaks especially since you're using more wood to make them, but that argument stands IC and not OOC) instead of handling the hard problem of fighting against a horde and honoring the wishes of the people you're trying to protect even though the horde has been broken before a couple times.

Quite frankly, as far as Emleth being "unredeemable", my PC has said it a lot ICly. A lot a lot. So much. That none of anyone has cared about Emleth until now, after it's gone, or else it would be better. This was the poorest hamlet which had been attacked over and over by the infested and no one thought "Oh, we should help them reinforce their hamlet." Of course, not many people ICly (or even OOCly, I hear) want to acknowledge that their PCs basically ignored the plight of people who needed them, until after the need was so great that the infested took over.

Anyways -- hopefully this goes over interestingly, if the GMs allow it to happen. Good luck with your easy way. Don't burn down Emleth forest. Maybe we can find out why Emleth is special to the infested afterwards.
I play: Vanja - Khadija - Solveig - Alaia

Sneaky
Member
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:43 am

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Sneaky » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:16 am

If you've a plan or idea as a player or character, I'd love to hear it.
[FROM Liani (OOC)]: It's an ice cream conehead
You also notice a bronze crossbow bolt (x8) and the corpse of a slender pale white cave drakolin.

User avatar
Lae
Member
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:05 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Lae » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:03 am

Blanket statements bother me, a lot of a lot. To say that no PC did anything for Emleth before all this happened is a falsehood. When I was a monk I spent a considerable amount of time in every hamlet. I didn't just heal, I have cooked and left a considerable amount of food and even supplies at every single hamlet for various reasons.

As the former GM who built Emleth I am kinda distressed over this storyline as well. But every single time I've been involved in a group effort to try to take back the hamlet I've been wrecked in less than five seconds. I'm pretty sure some people find that fun and are all like, "Hey, lets gear up and do that again!" but..I'm not one of them.

I didn't come to the decision that Emleth needed to be burned down all willy nilly. Out of all the solutions that I've heard when it's been discussed it is the only logical one that anyone has come up with. Luring the infested out and dealing with them in the wild? If they were smart enough to set up such devastating defenses - infested or not - they're not coming out without a very good reason. Especially since they want this hamlet so freaking bad. So if someone comes up with a plan that doesn't sound absolutely silly, maybe I'll be all for it. I personally am not going to spend time throwing myself into a situation where I am going to die repeatedly and feel completely frustrated, which is basically why I stopped logging in as much. I feel like I've become fodder for someones entertainment, and that no matter what I do...I'm getting nowhere. It's not fun.

So please, in future, don't just say that nobody cares. That drives me bonkers.
http://i.imgur.com/SuO0Fej.gif
[FROM Rias (OOC)]: Jaster can now pick the lock on your bathroom door. I don't want any more details on that bug report.
You ask, "Are we there yet?"
Bryce angrily says, "I will turn this horse RIGHT AROUND."
Speaking to you, Jaster exclaims, "Compassion, Sister Lae!"

User avatar
Alicia
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:04 am

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Alicia » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:32 am

One of my characters even thought burning down Emleth was a good idea from the beginning.

As for the elemancy options, remember elemancy is non-permanent, so a hydromancer could probably douse out little flames that crept up, but they couldn't keep the surrounding foliage wet. If you had four aeromancers, you could position one at each cardinal direction and if it looked like the fire was going to start spreading use a gust of wind to push it back inwards.

I think a lot of Tse Gaiyan are forgetting that the Tse Gaiyan's main objective is the Resen, not protecting the Gaea, that's the Dunwyr's job. If the Tse Gaiyan have to burn down a section of the forest to rid an infestation, that would be a sacrifice for the greater good and we would thakn the Gaea for providing the forest with which to burn the creatures in and stop the spread. The Dunwyr might hate us for it but them is the breaks, because the Dunwyr wouldn't have done it in the first place.

User avatar
Kiyaani
Member
Posts: 935
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:35 pm

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Kiyaani » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:46 am

First I want to say that I think this should continue to be discussed IC or, as suggested, in Player-Organized Events. Now...
Alaia wrote:That none of anyone has cared about Emleth until now, after it's gone, or else it would be better. This was the poorest hamlet which had been attacked over and over by the infested and no one thought "Oh, we should help them reinforce their hamlet." Of course, not many people ICly (or even OOCly, I hear) want to acknowledge that their PCs basically ignored the plight of people who needed them, until after the need was so great that the infested took over.
I disagree with this. There have been infested attacks on Emleth in the past. There have also been PC and NPC efforts to help Emleth in the past - much as Lae said. Just because there hasn't been anything since you started playing doesn't mean there has been nothing. Those guards they used to have were set up after certain events took place and only because of player support. I know that people have attempted to give the citizens some defensive training and teach them how to build up blockades and such in the past as well. For a long time that place was even regularly patrolled. I wouldn't say it was ever ignored.

I don't think the problem with Emleth is lack of player support, and I also don't think that it's fair to say a community of forty people can't survive without support so long as the problem is dealt with. I'm sure if the town was recovered the people would find a way to get by. The people of Emleth are hardy folk used to living a bit more roughly. Just because the town isn't ritzy doesn't mean that those people have a poor quality of life or don't like their lot. I always considered the place a bit redneck and I'm sure we can all agree that stereotypical rednecks are proud of how they live and aren't exactly terrible at making a livelihood even if it's not the conventional one.

If the GMs want people to get creative about how to save Emleth instead of just rushing in with brute force then that's fine, but maybe we should consider alternatives. Maybe they just need time to implement other mechanics or resolutions for people to use. I've seen people complain all the time when a single NPC gets murdered because it removes a trainer or the GMs have to put a lot of work in to replace it. That's one NPC. Here you're talking about destroying an entire hamlet with shops, an infirmary, houses etc. Let's remember - someone's PC actually lives there.

So if you want alternatives (though some of this should be discussed IC) here's a few:
- Maybe the GMs intend people to let it become a new combat zone (albeit a very small one), and so it's never intended to be saved.

- Maybe the GMs intend this to be resolved over a long period of time (like the canim or blood cult situations) and that shouldn't be taken as discouragement, but rather a method for them to prolong an engaging storyline and involve more people in its resolution.

- Maybe the GMs intend people to try negotiation. Yes, they're resen. Yes, they're the evil, scary things with acid bulbs on their skin. Yes, some of them even have personality and can talk. Did anyone ever try finding out how a kid who only speaks Huec ended up all the way down in Emleth? Did anyone ever try apologizing or finding out if they're willing to relocate or there's some resource they're looking for that once they have they will just leave on their own?

I get that they're the bad guys and no one should ever help the bad guys, but sometimes to win you have to make concessions and giving the infested something they need may allow the PCs and NPCs to get something they need. Once they're out of the town the infested threat can be dealt with later on different turf.

The infested claim the town is theirs now. Why do they want that town? Everyone seems to agree it's not a very pleasant place. Without constant maintenance it would likely just decay into nothingness in a few years. I think these are questions people need to ask IC if they haven't been asked already. And they need to be asked when a GM is around to take note and make determinations about whether or not they can assist with things or move matters a certain direction.

- Maybe the GMs just need some time to work up some other mechanism of resolving this that takes time to code and they fully intended the situation to last a few weeks in the meantime.

- Maybe we need to consider that while the NPC townsfolk may want their home back, it's just not going to be possible in every situation and that may be intended. The solution may instead be a forced relocation instead of a forced raising the town. That place is constantly under threat. Those people know that. They're being bull-headed too. That doesn't make them right or mean that you as players and characters have to abide by their wishes or accommodate them or treat them like fragile little things. Maybe the solution is to get a force together and make them move on - at least until another solution can happen. And maybe that forced movement can only happen when the GMs have had time to build a suitable new place for them to settle.

- Maybe setting fire to the place won't even solve the problem. We have no idea if the infested strolled into town from the outside or somehow dug their way in from the inside via some unknown or unbuilt tunnel system. Burning it may have absolutely no impact if they can just squirrel away and wait it out and then use their seemingly endless supply of infested loggers to build up something even more formidable.

*****

I personally feel very uninvolved in this event lately as I've been playing less the last week or two so maybe it's not even my place to talk or make suggestions. But I hope that you all will consider that while burning is the easy way, it's rarely the solution that's allowed. In-fact, I can't think of any times it was the solution allowed unless the GMs had some OOC motive and suggested it themselves (the Shadgard gate for example, or the Western Coalition so that it could be rebuilt).

The GMs have graciously accommodated a lot of what players do IC and helped make it reality, even if it goes against what they might want to happen. I don't think it's a good idea to try to force their hand by acting out setting a fire and claiming it's IC when they aren't around to support it or haven't given feedback. And I don't think it's a good idea to come to the boards and make ultimatums about how this is 'going to happen' and how there are no alternatives and that they did this themselves by making it too hard to handle.

I do get that it's totally frustrating to feel like you've tried everything and are just slamming your head against a wall. I get that some people were dead for literally hours during that second attack and that totally sucks. But let's think about that a moment - there were about 20 people on. All the fighters went in with no healing support (monks are able to be defended and don't always have to be kept away from fights. They can do more help with a group than waiting out on the road). None of the dead decided to depart. That left no one but healers and non-skilled combatants outside the battle so there was no chance of rescue. We finally convinced Gad with his uber defensive rolls to put on some armor and drag out some folks because none of the rest of us could and even he died a few times and he did depart. Sometimes during an event, you have to take one for the team and depart so that there's someone able to rescue others. I don't like to encourage departing, ever, but in that case the reason people were dead so long is because there was literally no one left to save the fallen. My character pulsed occasionally because one or two people were dead out in the woods and I was trying to get them without being sniped. So I'm sorry if that confused anyone who was in the massive corpse pile in town.

Let's also consider that this event hasn't been going on that long compared to any other major events that have taken place - some of which lasted a year or more - and I haven't been getting any sense of urgency about its resolution ever since around the time of the town hall meeting from either IC or OOC and I think that's fine. People are busy and slow-rolling it may be the way to go even if it's not the ideal way to go or doesn't seem to fit the dire situation.

I guess what all this is meant to say is... I would encourage people to give it some time. Continue to help where you can IC. Be true to your characters. Formulate strategies. Maybe try to get a few more IC meetings together and discuss the matter. Maybe try and see if some of the NPCs can actually show up (from Emleth and from other towns), so schedule it well-enough in advance that GMs and players both can attend. Reach out to local military forces and see what their response is or if they have any tactical suggestions. Actually wait for a response and don't get discouraged if one isn't sent right away. See if you can get an NPC-supported raiding party to help fill in your numbers with the appropriate amount of guards/ranged/melee fighters, or see if you can set up a time OOCly on the boards for your next attack so that you can make sure a GM is available to check progress and make adjustments to respawns if necessary.

Let's not give up just yet.

User avatar
Vinz
Member
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:49 am

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Vinz » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:04 am

Also when you say what the GMs want, lets also assume that bart isnt a gm. he is an npc with his own thoughts, opinions and reactions to things. He has his own agenda, like everyone in the world. His opinions do not express the opinions of the GMs regardless if he is played by a gm or not. his is the opinion of the tse gaiyan. Nothing more, nothing less.
-*- GM Vinz -*-
Haite says, " ...Diamonds are also hard, really really freaking hard."

User avatar
Lae
Member
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:05 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Lae » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:05 am

Your post is well put together Kiyaani, but two things I don't agree with completely.

First if this is supposed to be an ongoing "plot" it only makes sense to have highs and lows. If you're constantly going to beat a group of people into the ground with no hope of winning, eventually they're going to come to the solution that they're not supposed to win and find another way to deal with the issue.

Secondly, if a storyline like this is going to go on for a year or more, I would hope that the refugees would at some point move, or accept the various invitations they've had to at least hunker down at another location. I can suspend disbelief on a lot of things, but if I lived in Emleth and the place was overrun and the things left the city occasionally to attack? I would want to be as far away from that place as possible.

I get that this might be a permanent thing, and that's great, at least let us deal with the victims if we can't deal with the problem itself. Many people have tried (and a few did succeed) to talk to the people in that camp. To try to convince them to move, or just to see what they need...anything We want to help, but...nobody seems very interested in having us help. If they don't want to move permanently , that's one thing, but in the face of overwhelming danger I would hope that they would move temporarily. Or...anything.
http://i.imgur.com/SuO0Fej.gif
[FROM Rias (OOC)]: Jaster can now pick the lock on your bathroom door. I don't want any more details on that bug report.
You ask, "Are we there yet?"
Bryce angrily says, "I will turn this horse RIGHT AROUND."
Speaking to you, Jaster exclaims, "Compassion, Sister Lae!"

Sneaky
Member
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:43 am

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Sneaky » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:06 am

I retract my earlier statement, we'll have emleth cleared out within the morning.
[FROM Liani (OOC)]: It's an ice cream conehead
You also notice a bronze crossbow bolt (x8) and the corpse of a slender pale white cave drakolin.

User avatar
Lae
Member
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:05 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Lae » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:07 am

Sneaky wrote:I retract my earlier statement, we'll have emleth cleared out within the morning.

It's already after noon.
http://i.imgur.com/SuO0Fej.gif
[FROM Rias (OOC)]: Jaster can now pick the lock on your bathroom door. I don't want any more details on that bug report.
You ask, "Are we there yet?"
Bryce angrily says, "I will turn this horse RIGHT AROUND."
Speaking to you, Jaster exclaims, "Compassion, Sister Lae!"

Sneaky
Member
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:43 am

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Sneaky » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:09 am

Game time, it's still morning, two hours.
[FROM Liani (OOC)]: It's an ice cream conehead
You also notice a bronze crossbow bolt (x8) and the corpse of a slender pale white cave drakolin.

User avatar
Kiyaani
Member
Posts: 935
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:35 pm

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Kiyaani » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:16 am

I agree about highs and lows, Lae, and it is absolutely discouraging to not have any wins. But that might be how it's supposed to be right now. That's also just how things go sometimes. It may be that we as players aren't being allowed to have a victory because something else is planned and we're just rushing things or not taking the right approach. Maybe this is one case where might isn't right. Maybe I'm totally wrong.

As for the refugees, that's why I suggested they're being a bit bull-headed too and may need to be 'forced' to move. People can only be accommodating so much. Sometimes a stronger hand is needed to make people realize the danger they're in or how stupid they're being.

Since I'm still not playing as much as I was due to real life business, I really don't have much influence in this matter's ultimate resolution on an IC basis, but I hope that people will at least open their minds to other paths that might be taken.

User avatar
Elystole
Member
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:08 pm

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Elystole » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:17 am

Sneaky is right in that this course of action requires GM support. It is one of the reasons why I started this thread. Usually, I email GMs about stuff like this and I've sent a couple of emails to the entire staff concerning our efforts to relocate the refugees, but this time I started a board post to create the opportunity for other PCs to weigh in as well. At the very least it captures what the players are thinking.

There is also the issue of player and GM expectations: If the GMs' expectation is that the players are going to let Tse Gaiyan handle it and call in the NPC cavalry when it is time to duke it out, I don't see that coming to fruition.

This would normally be an IC discussion, but it seems impossible to get everyone on the same page and OOC frustrations are running high. Simply put, players don't trust Tse Gaiyan that much. They have no reason to trust Tse Gaiyan at all. Past events have created a reputation for the Udemi where they are seen not as a group that "focuses on wilderness survival and keeping civilization safe from the dangers that can be found out in the wild" (from the wiki) but as a group of anti-civilization fanatics, the Dunwyr's wussier siblings, who have nothing better to do than harass loggers and miners because the Gaea makes them feel bad. The Utasa is not a group that "focuses on keeping informed of the workings of towns and stopping anything that might threaten the peace and safety of cities" but a group of spies that stick their noses into everyone else's business and hoard information while trying to act mysterious. And that's without going into the specifics of events that lead to Tse Gaiyan being banned from towns or cause characters to say, "They left me to die."

Recent events have done nothing to alleviate that feeling. I can go into specifics if the GMs want and I had a reply that I deleted because of IC details, but suffice to say that whereas Elystole was annoyed with and distrustful of Tse Gaiyan before Emleth he's since been given ample reason to be openly hostile.

To sum all that up, if the GMs' idea is that Tse Gaiyan is supposed to handle the situation and that the PCs are supposed to trust them, they are trying to write a check that Tse Gaiyan's bank of trust can't cash. That account is already overdrawn from paying for all the various annoyances and screw-ups that have occurred so when that check bounces it bounces hard and we're left with PCs saying, "We'll only burn a little bit of the forest down."

Kiyaani asks some excellent questions. A lot of this we have been discussing ICly. I would love to hear that what the GMs actually intend is different than what we think they intend, but if what they intend is what we think they intend then I think we should discuss why that isn't working. It seems contrary to the reality of the situation. I will say that we did bring a healer with us and an elemancer, but we ran into three or four infested bowmen (including two on a platform that prevents guarding) and got chewed up. The depart discussion might be a good one to have. I didn't depart because it cheapens the impact of death in events if we just respawn to overwhelm the enemy but maybe that is erroneous thinking.

And, yes, I was happy with the IC hustle we saw to take care of the refugees. I was thrilled when Rias had Shadgard's sheriff and town council post on the boards after the meeting that they supported the plan. We want players to treat NPCs like they are people and not just mob fodder, so here was a bunch of PCs scrambling to take care of NPCs who didn't even have names. It was good. Then nothing happened and the sense of urgency that should go with forty people who narrowly escaped death only to camp a mere two hours' walk away from an enemy base (the infested could march to the camp, kill everyone, and march back with plenty of time left for an afternoon nap) turned to frustration.
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

jilliana
Member
Posts: 936
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:51 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by jilliana » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:19 am

Although I agree with Kiyaani's general sentiments of waiting to see what the GMs would do and giving things time in general, this particular plotline isn't really conducive to anything long-term, particularly where the refugees are concerned.

I think a lot of the problem may stem from a lot of assumptions made (whether or not they are correct isn't my place to state) and miscommunication.

It'd make things a bit easier on a lot of us if we're given a direction, even if a small one so we don't feel like we're wasting time on something when someone knows we're going about it all wrong.
CHAT - Sir Alexander Candelori: Truly a man is an abomination that does not dip his french fries into his chocolate frosty.
Bryce flatly says, "Just fair warning: If one of those things webs me, I'm going to scream like a girl."

User avatar
Kiyaani
Member
Posts: 935
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:35 pm

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Kiyaani » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:26 am

Just to be clear - I'm not meaning to say people should do a zerg rush where people just depart and keep coming in waves to overwhelm the enemy. I don't think that's a good approach at all. I was more meaning to say people should be willing to depart as a group, or at least individually, in situations where the entire party was overwhelmed so that bodies can have a chance to be recovered. That way players can re-form the party and make a concerted effort or try a new strategy or decide to move on for the time being. When people are dead for three hours and healers are left scratching their heads as to how to go about rescuing them against overwhelming odds it's no fun for anyone.

I think the amount of discussion in this thread is really good. And hopefully we'll get some more GM input into the matter without necessarily giving anything away... or at least some encouragement that what's going on isn't pointless or having no impact.

User avatar
Lae
Member
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:05 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Lae » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:31 am

Seems direction isn't necessary. Good job to those involved.
http://i.imgur.com/SuO0Fej.gif
[FROM Rias (OOC)]: Jaster can now pick the lock on your bathroom door. I don't want any more details on that bug report.
You ask, "Are we there yet?"
Bryce angrily says, "I will turn this horse RIGHT AROUND."
Speaking to you, Jaster exclaims, "Compassion, Sister Lae!"

User avatar
Alicia
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:04 am

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Alicia » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:36 am

Kiyaani - Maybe the GMs intend people to try negotiation. Yes, they're resen. Yes, they're the evil, scary things with acid bulbs on their skin. Yes, some of them even have personality and can talk. Did anyone ever try finding out how a kid who only speaks Huec ended up all the way down in Emleth? Did anyone ever try apologizing or finding out if they're willing to relocate or there's some resource they're looking for that once they have they will just leave on their own?

We attempted to do such a thing but because of certain PC actions this line was abruptly halted though perhaps it could be picked back up in another fashion.

Elystole - Simply put, players don't trust Tse Gaiyan that much. They have no reason to trust Tse Gaiyan at all. Past events have created a reputation for the Udemi where they are seen not as a group that "focuses on wilderness survival and keeping civilization safe from the dangers that can be found out in the wild" (from the wiki) but as a group of anti-civilization fanatics, the Dunwyr's wussier siblings, who have nothing better to do than harass loggers and miners because the Gaea makes them feel bad.

I am personally attempting to steer the Udemi away from this with my own character, thanks to GM clarifications and yet I've seen the Tse Gaiyan NPCs counteract the very things the GMs say OOCly, ICly. As a single player I have no idea how to do it and in a way I've partially given up on the whole situation and scaled back on my play time (for this and a couple other reasons). I do not believe the Tse Gaiyan in general are supposed to view the Gaea in the same light as the Dunwyr. The Gaea is a tool in our arsenal to fight the Resen, and while we might respect it and thank it for it's help, it is not our priority to defend the Gaea, especially not against "human"-kind. If the Gaea is distressed, and we come across a non-infested humanoid we should simply figure out 'Are they doing something for the people, or are they helping the Resen?" if they are not aiding the Resen, then we should simply move along, it is the Dunwyr's job to be all crazy fanatical "I kill loggers"

User avatar
Elystole
Member
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:08 pm

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Elystole » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:37 am

I was one of the first people to die, so I wasn't aware of how bad it got until afterwards. I was thinking that I was only two rooms in and that once the main group formed back up after retreating and pushed into Emleth again that they'd be able to retrieve the bodies (I was aware of mine and Ben's). Not that the whole group got wiped out and the infested were running roughshod over everyone else. So at what point do we think a situation is FUBARed enough that people should start departing? I've departed before where I died in some corner of Stone Canyon in the middle of the night and knew that no one would get me.
Lae wrote:Seems direction isn't necessary. Good job to those involved.
I think I missed something.
You overhear the following rumor:
"I saw one of those Shadgard folk come barging into Grif's and shoot one of the patrons on the spot. Shadgard must be a pretty rough place with such outlaws running rampant."

User avatar
Kiyaani
Member
Posts: 935
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:35 pm

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Kiyaani » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:38 am

Elystole wrote:I think I missed something.
Me too...

garith
New member
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:58 pm

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by garith » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:42 am

I hope I don't get in major trouble for this. Spoilerish. But A group is working on the problem after regrouping. Anymore will have to be found out IC since I think they would need as much help as possible.

User avatar
Rias
Lore Hermit
Posts: 6090
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:23 pm
Location: Utah
Contact:

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Rias » Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:32 pm

There were multiple walls of text in this thread (and I was on vacation this weekend so I wasn't able to keep up realtime), so I apologize in advance for not addressing everything and the likelihood that I skimmed over and missed a few things. I'm going to make a few responses as I think of them and throw in my own wall of text.

First off, here's our typical invasion scenario: Mass of badguys moves in, player characters rally, badguys are cleared out within about 30 minutes to a few hours, and things go back to normal like nothing really ever happened. I'm not saying this is bad (well, sometimes it's kinda weird, but eh). Sometimes, however, we want things to have more of a lasting impression, or we want it to involve more than that very simple, very quick solution. Sometimes we want more than "get a big group together, go kill all the badguys, we'll be done by this afternoon." So sometimes we make that solution not viable, or at least not ideal.

"What do the GMs want in this whole Emleth situation?" We want the PCs to decide. Lots of plans have been formulated, and a few have made some progress, while others have confused the refugees because oh my gosh all these people telling us all these different things. Some great efforts were made to try and understand/figure out what the motivations were behind this effort on the part of the infested. Needless to say, those efforts got cut short and you could say that, uh, the "gather info check" failed. I do want to say that I don't believe this was solely the fault of any single person, so let's not all wave our torches and pitchforks at anyone saying "This is all your fault!" One thing led to another, miscommunications and exaggerations were made, conclusions were jumped to, and so on.

Ultimately, though, we didn't have any one singular plan, path, or outcome in mind. We wanted this to be more dynamic than a World of Warcraft quest. We obviously control the infested NPCs and know what they're doing, but we don't know how the PCs are going to react. We wanted you guys to be in charge of your side of things. Some of the plans people came up with were very good.

Another example that might be considered more "successful" in a way on the part of the PCs is the Thaelsh Temple thing. Several PCs, over a fair amount of time, performed both coordinated and individual efforts to cleanse/reclaim the Temple. It wasn't done in a day, or a week, or a month, but hey - people didn't give up, and now they've succeeded! Huzzah! No NPC cavalry came in to save the day. No NPC leader said "Okay, here is the plan, now you guys go enact it." Nobody had a mysterious GM-given dream or vision to nudge them in the right direction. The PCs took it upon themselves do do what they felt would be effective, and with effort and over time, success was achieved. Some efforts were combat-oriented, many were not. It was awesome how people did all sorts of different things, and on their own initiative. The whole thing, combined, was one of my personal favorite CLOK experiences. It was also a nice example of a win after a long-term loss. The temple was originally a safe area, but was lost a long time ago during an event. It was defiled/held by "the enemy" in a sense for a very long time, but the PCs eventually got it back. Super neat, and more fun, in my opinion, than just being another "oh no we got invaded and lost the place to have it garrisoned by the enemy, but we reclaimed it before the evening was done so no big." Not that I want everything to take as long as that did. It varies from situation to situation.

General Problem: A lot of player plans in extraordinary situations require GM interaction, and GMs don't always have time when the people with the plans do. Yeah, this is an issue. I don't have a solution, but some advice is: ensure the GMs know your plans and when you plan to go through with them, with notice in advance. Players often do this already, so thank you! You guys are awesome. I know things may be a little more frustrating nowadays: In the past, several GMs (myself included) were unemployed and had far more time and availability. That's no longer the case (yay for employment!), and scheduling has become much harder, and response time longer and more hit-and-miss. I think both the players and the GMs are feeling the adjustment pains.

On Departing: If we really don't want people to depart during an event, we can disable it temporarily. If you've been dead for hours and there doesn't seem to be any hope of rescue and you're thinking how much this sucks, go ahead and depart. That's why it's still available. To those who refrain for RP purposes, and/or so we don't get the silliness of large groups all dying just to re-form and make a second wave of the same people who just died ten minutes ago, kudos to you. Seriously. But don't feel like you should never ever do it and that you sacrifice your integrity or something; if you're just sitting there being angry at how sucky the situation is, go ahead and depart so you can get back into things, or to move on to something else, or whatever. Yeah, if Uber McSuperguy dies in the Evil Deadly Plains of Death and Despair, and it's obvious nobody is around or capable of saving him, there's no point in his staying dead forever because he's worried that departing is a taboo.

Anything else anyone wants to ask or get a comment or remark on, just post it here. Can't guarantee answers to everything since some things may be outside my guruship or may need to be answered ICly, but I'm happy to address further concerns or continue to discuss things already brought up.
The lore compels me!

User avatar
Vitello
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:08 am

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Vitello » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:45 am

Arguably this may be oocish and impair the rp of those not able to separate themselves but I suggest this,


An outline for events.

Is it a one time raid, a week long sitation, a campaign that will effect the game world for years? Knowing this as a player can effect the mindset when they go into things. The game is about rp but there is also feelings of winning, losing, accomplishment, and failure.... and so much character development.


Some example terms.

Event: One time situation with no (direct) long term effects. A raid, wave of monsters, a party anything can be an event.

Plot: On going multi-event, there may be dry periods based on GM availability/story development but it isn't going to be wrapped up in a day.

Story/Chapter: Larger than a plot.

Campaign: Anything from a year long series of stories to the lifetime of the game itself.


We are all actors on an improve stage. As a community we should have enlightened and intelligent discussion to make the stage shine and help us grow as actors/storytellers.
Vitello - Ton - Shirinya - Alwaren

User avatar
Vitello
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:08 am

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Vitello » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:50 am

Perhaps even go into types. Events heavily influenced by player imagination and ideas are wonderful(personally I love dreaming and coming up with ideas), but so can the linear WoWesque quests (and probably easier on the GMs especially after a stressful mind numbing day). Just easier to roll with if you know.
Vitello - Ton - Shirinya - Alwaren

User avatar
Selene
Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: Razing Emleth

Post by Selene » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:54 am

The problem with that is GMs don't know how long a plot will take, or even an event. An event that was supposed to take an hour and be neatly resolved can be screwed up so unexpectedly that there are far-reaching consequences, or characters can respond in ways we didn't anticipate and open up new avenues that may take longer to resolve. On the other hand, dedicated and logical work as well as abject failure from those involved can either progress an event a lot or send it to a complete halt.

Sometimes events are thought out and even given rough outlines, but it's rare that anything goes according to plan.

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”