Generalized Abilities Concerns

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Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Kiyaani » Sun May 31, 2015 1:45 pm

I thought I would start a thread for feedback and concerns about specific abilities, their changes, their useage etc. Please feel free to post discussion and feedback here. I'll start with a few that have been bothering me personally and hope to get some input on.

War Riding:

I'm having some trouble coming to terms with War Riding's total shift in focus. It used to be a flat 100 point skill increase and additional 3% skillgain bonus that required 50 points in riding and 200 in melee to learn. Now it seems to merely give something which everyone used to be able to do by saving up the riln to acquire a warhorse - namely trample and charge.

Limiting War Riding to unlocking trample and charge takes away most of the utility in having a warhorse for the average player and feels like it's taking a valuable point away from a lot of people who rely on those abilities as not their primary combat method, but as a last resort when facing something too challenging to approach on foot. In addition to this, it now requires a staggering 200 ride skill just to learn. Basic riding around in the wilds caps you at 100. Ride skill gains after that are abysmally slow.

Trample and charge are abilities that I don't think should require such a high skill level to perform, nor should they take up a valuable ability point when they were previously unlocked by just having the horse.

Would it be possible to rethink making trample and charge part of this ability? I’d like to see them go back to being horse-based. Maybe give War Riding some other bonuses similar to weapon focus type abilities. Examples for alternatives could be higher weight rolls, chance to stun/increase stun duration for a charge, increase trample duration/damage etc. I feel like doing this would give War Riding enough of a bonus to make it worthwhile to those who make riding their lifestyle, while still keeping warhorses useful for those who don’t.

*****

Lapidary/Skinning Focus

In a previous post Rias mentioned that skills such as blacksmithing and lapidary would allow players to perform the very basics without needing an ability point to be spent. For blacksmithing nails were given as the example and for lapidary polishing, but no faceting.

As of now it seems you do need the Lapidary ability to either Facet or Polish, taking up a valuable point for something that seems very intuitive. I can absolutely understand needing an ability to do the more fancy work that faceting requires, but I understood that basic polishing would be allowed. Is this being looked at or was there a change of mind when the ability was put out?

Skinning too seems to be a very intuitive kind of action. The way it is now seems to be a huge directional change from how Clok has traditionally been. You used to be able to just go out and do things - much as you could in real life. And yes, you would be terrible at it at first. That's why there are skillgains and increases in quality. Making something like skinning require an ability point (for more than frog and crab legs) seems like overkill for the most basic level. I could understand the more complex creatures needing advanced skinning technique (draks, shardlings, the various bugs that currently can't be skinned, reptiles, birds maybe etc.), but it doesn't seem like it should be too difficult to work your way through something like skinning a mammal without some special proficiency or training.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby sona » Sun May 31, 2015 1:49 pm

yup, this is what I call/feel to be the "clok: kick in the guts edition". Take it or leave it, pick your alloted abilities, and that's that. :(

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Zoiya » Sun May 31, 2015 1:53 pm

sona wrote:yup, this is what I call/feel to be the "clok: kick in the guts edition". Take it or leave it, pick your alloted abilities, and that's that. :(



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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby sona » Sun May 31, 2015 1:55 pm

it was at least as depressing to feel/write.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Ardor » Sun May 31, 2015 1:58 pm

For blacksmithing maybe give forging commodity to everyone and put the rest into abilities. That would also let people give it a quick try to see how much they love it.

For lapidary maybe have the lapidary ability have facet and everyone have polish?

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Kiyaani » Sun May 31, 2015 1:58 pm

Let's try to keep this on-topic and constructive. I don't have a problem with generalized abilities, but I do feel some of them could be tweaked. I also understand that this is still in very early stages and will likely see a lot of changes as things progress. I'd just like to get the discussion started and hear what some of the reasoning/idea is behind some of these abilities and the decisions that went into them so they can be understood more openly and with less player-side (and gm-side?) frustration.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Skah » Sun May 31, 2015 1:58 pm

So, I'm really enjoying generalization so far. I mean, I'd love another 2 points, but I'm really happy with most of the changes.

I think it's not unreasonable for mounted combat to take up a point, personally. I'm grateful we can still use warhorses without it, except for tramping and charging, but it's only one point to pick up (no pre-requisites!). As for the requirements. I went from 100 riding to well north of 200 in about a week and a half, so it's definitely do-able.

A similar thing could be said for polishing of gems. Lapidary skills aren't super common, and never have been. It seems to me that as intuitive as gem polishing is, it's not unreasonable that it's considered to be a talent that requires some trainng and natural abilities.

I think some character have spread themselves a bit thinly, and might have to refocus their RP a bit, but I'm quite looking forward to that!

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Kiyaani » Sun May 31, 2015 1:59 pm

I agree Ardor - there's something to be said about being able to try things out on a very basic level without having to wait a month for ability points to refresh. I have no experience with blacksmithing/smelting so I'm not sure if it can be performed at all without points.

Also - agreed Skah. 20 points would be lovely.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Elystole » Sun May 31, 2015 2:09 pm

Being able to make nails or something would be cool. One of the things I like about Elystole is that he had this sort of frontiersman vibe where he could do a few things well enough to survive even if he didn't specialize at it.

Here's an idea: What if instead of completely locking people out of professions without having the abilities we cap their quality instead?

You'll never make better than average nails without Blacksmithing Focus. You'll never get better than average pelts without Skinning Focus. Sure, you can pick up a knife and muddle your way through it until you have some idea of what you're doing, but you'll never be as good as someone who focused on that profession by taking the ability. As such, the upper echelons of quality are forever barred from you. You'd be better off buying stuff from the store, but some people are hobbyists who take pride in their own stuff even if it sucks.

Skah wrote:I went from 100 riding to well north of 200 in about a week and a half, so it's definitely do-able.

How? Seriously, how?

Elystole has been fighting almost exclusively mounted for literally months now and has only gained 80 ranks past that initial 100. I've posted a few times about it. Either you're doing something special or the rest of us are bugged. I'm really wondering what weapon + horse combination you're using to see if different weapons or mounts or something else entirely is screwing with the results. Do you get weapon gains on the rounds that your horse also attacks? I don't.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Kent » Sun May 31, 2015 2:09 pm

I'm pretty sure I agree with Kiyaani's trains of thoughts here. Trampling especially is more a skill of the warhorse than the rider.

I would like to suggest for Skinning...that players with no skinning focus be results capped at Average.

Players wishing to produce above-average or better skins would need to invest in the Skinning Focus.

This seems most realistic.
Last edited by Kent on Sun May 31, 2015 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Kiyaani » Sun May 31, 2015 2:10 pm

I really like that idea of quality capping.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby preiman » Sun May 31, 2015 2:18 pm

at risk of contributing to the digression, yeah riding is slow, I've still managed about 50 points in the last 4 months or so. faster now that i am really working for it. I get most gains when i am not as good with the weapon i am using.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Aranon » Sun May 31, 2015 3:09 pm

I would just like to thank the GM staff for releasing this new ability system. It's nice to be able to curtail more of your skills to your background and not just be stuck just with what your guild offers.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Vaylon » Sun May 31, 2015 3:22 pm

Kiyaani wrote:Skinning too seems to be a very intuitive kind of action. The way it is now seems to be a huge directional change from how Clok has traditionally been. You used to be able to just go out and do things - much as you could in real life. And yes, you would be terrible at it at first. That's why there are skillgains and increases in quality. Making something like skinning require an ability point (for more than frog and crab legs) seems like overkill for the most basic level. I could understand the more complex creatures needing advanced skinning technique (draks, shardlings, the various bugs that currently can't be skinned, reptiles, birds maybe etc.), but it doesn't seem like it should be too difficult to work your way through something like skinning a mammal without some special proficiency or training.

I agree with this -- the bolded part especially. Skinning does not require specialized knowledge. Requiring a skinning ability just to skin ordinary mammals is analogous to requiring people to learn an ability before they can forage for herbs.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Skah » Sun May 31, 2015 3:35 pm

That would make a certain amount of sense to me. Maybe a quality cap, a skillgain cap (say, up to 200 skinning), and only things with normal pelts> That would let people try it, or make a little coin while hunting, while still allowing people to specialize.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Lysse » Sun May 31, 2015 4:11 pm

I'd love a Quality cap of just below average, personally. This means that Average quality items are much, much, MUCH more valuable, and people can't just "get by" without either taking the associated ability, or toughing through the small penalty.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Elystole » Sun May 31, 2015 4:30 pm

Lysse wrote:I'd love a Quality cap of just below average, personally. This means that Average quality items are much, much, MUCH more valuable, and people can't just "get by" without either taking the associated ability, or toughing through the small penalty.

I might be able to get behind that. I was thinking that knapping would need a cap below average since average is its max.

It's enough for someone to try the profession out and see whether or not they enjoy it, and it is not so shoddy that you can't really make a crude weapon rack or rucksack if you want. Which is just about what I'd want for a frontier "I can make do in a pinch" situation. That would also establish the hierarchy of quality goods as hobbyist PC < store NPC (it is worth remembering that they are professionals) < specialist PC.

I think I could go for an average or poor cap. There are arguments to be made for either. I think both preserve the "You can try just about anything" nature of skill-based games, which is one of its appeals over experience-based, while still making people specialize if they want to really go somewhere with it. If you do go the jack-of-all-trades route, you won't be mastering anything or competing with the people who do specialize.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Acarin » Sun May 31, 2015 4:39 pm

Was a weapon specialization for brawling left out intentionally? Would like to see this.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby merin » Sun May 31, 2015 4:46 pm

First off, I want to say that generalization is pretty neat, if a bit rough around the edges still. I think we should get at least two more ability points, but that’s me being like “18 si so close to 20, why not just round up?”.

Second, I think that the whole “You need to spend an ability point,” to try something is stupid and is going to drive people off from the game. I may only be speaking for myself but if I was a newcomer to Clok, and figured out that I could blacksmith, I would want to try it out (obviously). I would hesitate and think it not worth it because what if I hated it? Then, I wasted an ability point to simply give it a shot. I probably would have mined metals first, so, I would have gotten some sort of quarts – there goes an ability point into lapidary. If I hate all that I have done (mining and blacksmithing in some games is extremely terrible), I wasted three months of my playing time to find a niche, assuming that mining is going to be added as abilities like everything else had. I don’t think that’s anywhere near newbie friendly and or open to helping people find their place in the game. The same goes for skinning and leatherworking. I propose that lapidary allow you to polish only. With the ability you can facet gems – although I would also suggest that actually mattering to the jewlry crafting so we can actually show off a princess cut diamond or a square-faceted quartz bracelet or whatever. For leatherworking you are able to make up to average clothing only without an ability (it does nothing, no one wants it due to the weight, and still lets you try it out), and is capped at a certain skill even – 100, 200? Skinning as said, average pelts. No one really will come to you for your average stuff, I can get it in the store often times cheaper – unless that’s going to be changed. Knapping, too, I hope will be made possible to increase the quality with more than average with the ability.

Third, when the new abilities come out, what then? A lot of us are nearly struggling to take a niche now.

I know that there is supposed to be some realism and people are supposed to specialize and such, but, how can they specialize when trying something they may potentially not like is going to take them months to undo? I love the idea behind all this, but, it’s just a game, too. Give people a chance to at least experience what there is to offer and want to specialize rather than never doing it because of the high costs. Also, if I was new, I’d create alts simply for trying things – that would kind of be no fun. I’ve done it and regret doing it.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Lysse » Sun May 31, 2015 6:26 pm

Elystole wrote:
Lysse wrote:I'd love a Quality cap of just below average, personally. This means that Average quality items are much, much, MUCH more valuable, and people can't just "get by" without either taking the associated ability, or toughing through the small penalty.

I might be able to get behind that. I was thinking that knapping would need a cap below average since average is its max.

It's enough for someone to try the profession out and see whether or not they enjoy it, and it is not so shoddy that you can't really make a crude weapon rack or rucksack if you want. Which is just about what I'd want for a frontier "I can make do in a pinch" situation. That would also establish the hierarchy of quality goods as hobbyist PC < store NPC (it is worth remembering that they are professionals) < specialist PC.

I think I could go for an average or poor cap. There are arguments to be made for either. I think both preserve the "You can try just about anything" nature of skill-based games, which is one of its appeals over experience-based, while still making people specialize if they want to really go somewhere with it. If you do go the jack-of-all-trades route, you won't be mastering anything or competing with the people who do specialize.


Frankly, knapping is a pretty specialized method of construction, and I'd personally keep it as limited as it is, or maybe limit it so all people can knap are Flakes (but not arrows), and maybe hammer heads.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Fayne » Sun May 31, 2015 6:42 pm

First, apologies for not reading all of the posts here, but I have to chime in on the skinning thing.
Now, I just have to say that everyone is kinda lucky that they aren't required to get an ability to butcher as well. I took hunting classes at one point in time, and trust me, skinning and butchering isn't simply "cut it up into pieces." With skinning, it is easy to damage the skin if you aren't careful, especially since to get a good pelt, you start your cut on the abdomen, where the muscle tissue is quite thin. One could easily cut too deep, and then you've created issues for yourself. Butchering is the same way, you start on the abdomen, and have to be careful how you make your cuts. Then you carefully remove the organs before butchering the actual meat. If you puncture one of those organs and get any type of bile or digestive fluids on that meat, you've just royally fucked up. So yeah, skinning is totally understandable for needing an ability.

As for the other stuff, I hold similar opinions. These are professions, not tinkering hobbies. Be glad you don't have to apprentice under someone for a period of time to learn half of these skills.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Kiyaani » Sun May 31, 2015 6:50 pm

I get where you're going Fayne, but this is why there's things like totally ruining pelts and terrible skins. Dabbling to find your niche should be allowed to some degree. I plan to get the abilities anyway because I don't dabble, but I still think others should be able to do basic skinning and other profs.

Also, I too want to thank the GMs for their hard work so far. I think it's a neat system. I look forward to seeing how it goes.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby merin » Sun May 31, 2015 7:23 pm

I do agree that, while it does take some required learning, you cant' just go skin yourself. that's why you buy a lesson. In that lesson, someone tells you to watch out for the stomach because it will ruin your meat. Easy enough. Also it's a game -- if I wanted to play real life I would not play a game :).

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Acarin » Sun May 31, 2015 7:32 pm

I'm all for capping the quality for pelts at average without skinning focus (or preferably below average, with average being someone who actually knows what they're doing but isn't great at it, i.e. someone starting out with skinning focus). Even though I have no real life knowledge of skinning, I can still cut a skin off an animal if I have a knife. It's just not going to turn out well at all. If someone gave me a lesson or two... I'm sure they'd be passable.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Postby Elystole » Sun May 31, 2015 7:42 pm

If I can find an instructional video on YouTube (and there are plenty for both knapping, skinning, polishing gems...) then it isn't so difficult that someone can't muddle through it after getting some pointers.
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