Generalized Abilities Concerns

Xyra
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Xyra » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:19 pm

Hey all, my first post, so go easy on me.

I feel I have a fairly unique perspective as a new player (less than a week) who never knew the old style of how things were set up.

I don't know what all has changed, only how things are now. Personally I mostly like them. I like how there is an opportunity for people to do a wide range of things regardless of other factors, and how guilds allow a certain level of specialization. I feel like having no access to abilities outside your guild would make for very cookie cutter characters as far as skills and abilities go, while having a wide range of general abilities means you can add that unique spice to your character's actual abilities (Every individual character can of course be as unique in other ways as they wish, and don't require a lick of code for that).

I agree with some of what other people have said on here. It would be nice to be able to try out a few things like forging without investing an ability in it. Let you go through the motions, even if you can't become particularly good. At least let you know if you enjoy something or not.

I feel something like this should be extended to other abilities. While just starting out I don't have any issue with my number of abilities yet, I'm sure it'll become a huge issue fast enough, and a month to change abilities is alot. Perhaps instead abilities (all abilities, not just crafting ones) could have a... trial option. You'd get the ability for a game day or a real week or something like that, and at the end of the trial you could choose if you want to keep it or not. If you do, it's yours as if you'd learned it. If not, it gets instantly removed, but you can never give it a trial run again. (Possibly reset if there is a major change to the ability).

I think this would give new players a chance to try out some things a bit more before settling on any particular route. They can try out combat, and even experience some of the cooler abilities for a little bit, without being required to invest a few months to try it. Shouldn't even be any serious RP issues with it, as turning down the ability at the end of the trial would simply be the character having tried something, not liked it, and deciding to not try it any more.

I know this has been a long post, and it likely rambles and doesn't contain much useful information since I don't know much, but I hope it expresses a new player's viewpoint to some extent, or at least one particular new player's.

I'd like to finish up by saying thank you to the GMs who are working on the game. I know a huge overhall like this is difficult on all kinds of levels, from coding and creating to balancing and implementing. I also know it is an especially stressful thing to have to put it out in parts like this, but I want to thank you for going through the massive effort to improve the game, and keep it as fresh and interesting as possible. I feel like I've joined the game at a particularly interesting time, and look forward to learning the game and seeing what is to come.

Looking forward to seeing some of you in game!

P.S. - I have to admit that I'm slightly sad that apparently virtually all combat and crafting is available to (if not the highest levels attainable by) virtually anyone, but magic is (apparently) locked entirely behind a handful of guilds. I think it might be neat (though perhaps not thematic, I haven't played long enough to be sure) if at least a small amount of magic was available to all players, just as some amount of crafting etc. is available to them all.

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Acarin
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Acarin » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:23 pm

If you're willing to dirty your hands enough, you might find that some limited easy magic is available to you. You just have to make some.... sacrifices.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Dorn » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:17 am

To chime in with some of Kent's thoughts...

Personally, I've always loathed the Mercenaries and Artisans. Out of all the Guilds in the game, they've always stood out like a sore thumb. I seem to vaguely remember a while back, a post about how they offered no large advantages because they offer next to no constraints on RP but when put against the other Guilds even then I always found it kind of hard to say what was a Mercenary, or an Artisan compared to someone else.

Now with Generalization, that is even more true in regards to Mercenaries. What makes a Mercenary a Mercenary. It is all good and proper saying, you don't need to join the Guild to be one but that puts a question as to why have the Mercenaries as a Guild at all instead of some other form of organization?

In regards to retconning with guilds, generalization, and moving Guilds... always found it an odd rule. I realize it is there to prevent guild hopping but in the end it is a limitation on possible RP as well. Taking Kent for example. Heck. He is an old-man, perhaps after so many odd years of life fighting for a living he is finally ready to take a bit more of a quiet life and spending more time away from the bustle of the cities. RP-wise, he could have witnessed and gone through a lot of changes in character over time that would contribute him to saying "STFU Irwin!" and walking out. He still can, but any pursuit of any other path after will always be limited. Sure, you can decide you loath the industrial bustle of the Coalition and become a hardcore Tse but you'll always get, "Well you're not really a Tse." Or so many other variations of that. Either way, topic that has been flogged enough lately I guess.

I've no real issues with the progress and rate of unlearning/generalized abilities otherwise. At this point Kent, things seem to be getting looked at, tested, and toyed with to see how things work out and it seems they've started with the Brawling. Just going to have to give them some time.

In regards to specific ability details though, if we're allowed, it might just be worth us as players beginning to gather information on the general abilities that are on offer and posting them up on one of the boards for people to browse through. Not perfect, but could be a little stop gap while things get caught up.

I do rather like different cost for abilities depending on Guild though, it could be an interesting way to further add more diversity away from generic builds.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by merin » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:31 am

+1 on the day trial for abilities. I don't think a day, but an hour or two, maybe. I think it would help for a few reasons:
1. Thorns. It sounds really, really, grate. I took the ability. I used it once, it sucks. The thorns give five or six extra damage. I'll just go the extra round of combat.
2. Stave to Staff. It ruins my bow. I'll just carry one around -- also a waste of an ability point. AN exquisette bow went to average. No thanks. I'll carry two weapons.
3. Coup DeMort. Waste of an ability point -- I never knew we had to be in an offensive tactic. I'm willing to put that one on me not reading, though. Still. I say it's a waste because it requires me to knock a person down, change tactics (3 seconds) and attempt it. by the time I get that attempted, they're back up and I lost out on a defense roll.

Anyway, although these are the express oppinions of me, others may or may not feel this way -- I wish I had an opportunity to try it in practice before I would have to spend months unlearning it and the prerequs for some.

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Kent
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Kent » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:57 am

Kunren wrote:Just my thoughts on your post Kent.


2.One free chance to leave your guild: I don't think this will fly. As much as people will often choose guilds based on their abilities, or at least it will influence their decision, they shouldn't. A change like this which affects the powers of each guild should not have changed the rp that SHOULD be leading people to joining a guild. If the mercenaries does not fit Kent, then leave. Code wise you will likely always be a mercenary, but there's nothing saying you can't tell Irwin to shove it and shack up with whoever else you like. You won't get their spiffy abilities, yes, but you will fit your RP.


4.Ratings board: Pretty sure the GMs already have a tally board as to who has picked what, and how many times each ability has been picked. It's up to them if they wish to release that information or keep it quiet to use in balance doohickeys and all that jazz.

2. My point was, I would have chosen artisan or snowpine lodge had all the combat specializations been out in the open. Also my point is that it is simply not plausible that a self-taught fighter is going to be an equal to someone with full professional training behind him.

4. The GM's only know which Abilities were picked. They do not know which abilities were regretted (except for up to one ability per person if they elected to unlearn). GM's do not use ability choices, players do, and it does not benefit players that they cannot see feedback from other players as to which abilities are worth it and which are kind of lame once you actually try to employ them, as illustrated by Merin just above. It is the GM's loss as well that they cannot see said feedback in an orderly, structured manner.
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Kent
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Kent » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:23 pm

Acarin wrote:If you're willing to dirty your hands enough, you might find that some limited easy magic is available to you. You just have to make some.... sacrifices.

Also, I can't understand why Thaumaturgy is not available to just about everyone not from Corvus. Several church members have told me 'it comes from the light that is in all of us', and that it is not granted by the church.
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Zoiya
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Zoiya » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:26 pm

Kent wrote:
Acarin wrote:If you're willing to dirty your hands enough, you might find that some limited easy magic is available to you. You just have to make some.... sacrifices.

Also, I can't understand why Thaumaturgy is not available to just about everyone not from Corvus. Several church members have told me 'it comes from the light that is in all of us', and that it is not granted by the church.

Magic is, and will always be, a guild or special ability. Everyone has the light inside of them, but few people can focus their compassion enough to use it.

So, say, someone who just wants to heal themselves because they don't like being wounded? You'd never be able to tap into your light.

Someone who wants to be selfless and help anyone who needs it, that is the type of person who will, and those are typically the people who become monks.

This will not change. Sorry.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Barius » Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:55 pm

I'm going to chime in here with this:

With the game how it is now, I probably would not have made Barius a mercenary. He is now stuck this way, effectively, but I have not bothered trying to change this nor will I. It is unfortunate that new guilds and ability generalization has caused people to feel trapped in guilds they joined for the abilities, but I suppose it's the consequences of game development.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Dorn » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:26 am

A little confused by Skinning Focus/Bushcraft Basics.

Bushcraft offers this in regards to skinning: raises the maximum quality of skins produced from skinning from terirble to average.

While Focus offers this: This unlocks the ability to skin animal pelts and hides - pretty much anything other than crab and frog legs.

So. To actually get decent quality pelts, you not just have to get the Skinning Focus so that you can gain skill gains, and have a chance to manage a successful skin but the Bushcraft as well to enable you to get better quality pelts?

Or does Skinning Focus unlock better quality pelts as well, and the Bushcraft Basics part of the skinning would only be useful to those who skin crab/frog legs?
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Fayne » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:33 am

While I see others talking abiut it fairly recently, I'd like to throw in my two cents about the whole "you can only ever join one guild thing". Personally, I think it goes against the idea of an actual living world. Yes, it is supposed to prevent guild-hopping, but who says every person who does it is doing that? You could limit the number to two, that way people get a freebie if they don't like the guild they joined. Or, better yet, make them RP their way into another guild. Since most guilds are switching to RP-only for entry, this shouldn't be an issue, and makes more sense in the long run. After all, some organizations would find a person who quits a certain organization more attractive, especially if they have friends in the guild still, or were involved with them for a long time. Maybe a Tse Gaiyan gets pissed off at someone enough to leave and become an assassin. Maybe they discover a talent for elemancy instead of druidry and leave to pursue that. Maybe they find they like riln more than the feel-goods from killing infested, so they become a mercenary. Maybe they see nethrim do something so atrocious that they want to join the Templar, or Wyrvardn. Or hell, maybe an Artisan is sick of making swords and wants to take one up instead, and joins the Tse Gaiyan or Wyrvardn or anyone. In the case of the Tse Gaiyan leaving, that person has a number of skills that would be useful to those organizations, such as being able to move around undetected in the wilderness with ease, druidry to aid their combat, knowledge of using a bow instead of the melee weapons thise guilds are saturated with. In the case of the Attisan, that guild just acquired someone who can make high-quality weapons and armor for them for a lot cheaper than buying them elsewhere, and who is likely not going to be bad at using hafted weapons. It just makes sense that people should be able to RP into another guild if they choose to leave one, as long as they weren't forcibly removed or left just because they were bored. #endrant
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Zoiya
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Zoiya » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:37 am

Your rant brings up a lot of things that has been recently discussed on the GM team. While I'm not going to say that guild hopping should be a regular occurrence, I think that it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand either. We haven't come to any kind of decision, but we *are* discussing it. We are thinking about these things too, and we do realize that characters change, they don't always follow ONE path.
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Kunren
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Kunren » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:15 am

Zoiya wrote:Your rant brings up a lot of things that has been recently discussed on the GM team. While I'm not going to say that guild hopping should be a regular occurrence, I think that it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand either. We haven't come to any kind of decision, but we *are* discussing it. We are thinking about these things too, and we do realize that characters change, they don't always follow ONE path.
What about a long, say, six month Period in which you are locked into the guild after choosing it? Doesn't mean people won't guild hop every time the period is up, but it would at least make a stop block for those types, and it would give people time to learn their guild, see if it's truly for them or not. Perhaps to stop guild hopping altogether, double the period for each successive guild left/joined. Make it so once you leave, you can't come back to make the decision final and give it more weight. As for keeping the abilities... I don't see why not, though if people unlearned their previous guild abilities to make space for example, there'd be no way to get em back.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Solaje » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:16 am

I'm happy to hear it's being discussed. Before general abilities, it seemed reasonable to prevent guild changing so that people didn't hop around collecting every guild's abilities. Now that there is a cap on how many abilities we can gain, that seems like it should be less of a concern.

My character will never change guilds, but I do think it makes sense for other people.

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Zoiya
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Zoiya » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:18 am

It's being discussed, we're likely never going to have a "time period" or a specific amount of things you'll need to do, if we ever allow this to happen.

Continue to discuss though, we love hearing your opinions. :D
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by vidor » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:25 am

I'm very conflicted on the idea of keeping abilities after leaving a guild. I mean, sure -- I get that if someone is a Gaiyan and wants to leave and remain a druid, that is part of their character so it makes sense. But I'm also super uncomfortable with, for example, an elemancer leaving fully trained and then becoming a major combatant or something. Or an assassin making use of wilderness stealth and other Gaiyan abilities to keep hidden. I get why it makes sense, but it also seems to be preparing to lend itself for some seriously overpowered characters.
I do have to say though that I sort of look forward to the rp that will come from leaving/joining other guilds. Feelings of betrayal, aggression. Fear of sharing secrets, and people acting on said fear. We would, of course, have to set up some sort of safety so people aren't able to bring trusted items to other guilds.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Kunren » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:28 am

Hmm. If not the time period, maybe have a severe punch in the face for someone who leaves a guild? For mercs or artisans, have to pay a hefty sum for the Coalition to let you go, for Dwaeden, get a large scar or brand naming you as the worst sort of coward, for Tse Gaiyan, have to report your living quarters and other personal information for the rest of your life, or be excommunicated from the Gaia depending on the particular branch. Just as examples.

As for OP characters... Not a giant concern with the new ability caps, though it would have before generalized abilities.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Bryce » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:24 pm

The very idea of leaving at least some guilds should be accepted as 100% not an option. If you get into a really secretive or dangerous guild and then end up leaving them, it should be expected that your life would be forfeit (or in the case of Undying, a living hell to which death would be preferable) for turning your back on them. Who cares if you've had a life-changing experience? Your former guild hasn't shared that change and experience; all you are to them at this point is a rogue member who is a massive liability with knowledge of your special plans, knowledge, techniques, secret facility locations, passwords, exclusive communication mediums, trade secrets, and on and on.

Guild of Thieves, Claw of Shar, Utasa(?), Rook Parlour: Joining is a life decision. You can try to quit, but your character would end up perpetually on the run and constantly harassed, attacked, captured, and/or killed by guild PCs and NPCs alike for the remainder of your days.

Thieves Guild finds you no matter where you try to hide and constantly steals all your belongings, uses corruption to seize your bank account assets (or at least pin expenses and debts on you to drain your account and destroy any vestiges of credit), pins their crimes on you and plants false evidence to get you thrown into jail for lengthy amounts of time, the sky's the limit.

Claw of Shar, they just constantly kill you out of the blue, and probably kill off your family and friends as well. Even your NPC ones. That backstory you had that involved your parents and some lifelong friends with a promise to meet up again after your adventures to do and resolve ... whatever? Oops, they're all dead now. You made yourself a prime enemy of a guild of cold-blooded professional killers.

Utasa, who knows. They're weirdos. Maybe they'll tickle torture you or something. Or infest you in a secure lab to use as a test subject.

Rook Parlour? I don't even want to think about what they could, and would, do to you and your immortal soul. Probably the worst of all options to turn your back on.

Elemancers: Your brain is so full of elemancy schooling that there's no room left to learn any new special abilities. No point in leaving.

Monk and Templar: You lose your powers with this one I guess, so whatever. It's probably a pretty bad mark on your resume as well. "Broke solemn vow to serve and help people."

Dwaedn Wyr: Your peers see your shameful departure as so unbearable that they frequently confront and battle you to death. The betrayed Animal Spirits refuse to heed your calls, and even animals that were normally neutral are now hostile to you.

I'm sure people can use their imaginations for the rest.

If you choose to turn your back on a commitment that is joining a guild, why would any other guild trust you? The shady and dark ones have even LESS reason to allow someone who left another guild to join theirs, because this is a person who is willing to commit to something serious (guild memberships are serious business), advance in its ranks, learn its secrets, and then decide to leave and actively try to join ANOTHER organization with special techniques and exclusive knowledge. No way are they going to trust someone who pulled that. Use them? Sure. Let them into the guild and teach them secret techniques and give them access to exclusive tools and weapons? No way.

Aside from the RP reasons for guild decisions being permanent: otherwise, what's to stop me from just making up some mid-life crisis when I decide I've got all the abilities, items, and secret info from my guild - or I just get bored - and want to move on to the next one? I could spend the next month mass producing lockpicks in the workshop to build up a virtual lifetime supply, have a traumatic experience and a change of heart, quit the Guild of Thieves, and join, I don't know ... Mummers, to get some cool mind powers. And then when I get Word of Horror and Mind Fog, I get hit in the head, have amnesia, use that as a reason to quit the guild, because now I want to be a sorcerer and add some sorcerous flair to my portfolio of cool powers. Oooh, and after that, I've always thought tangle root was cool, find me a Udemi recruiter ...

Everyone's going to have their special reason why they think they should be the exception and they should be allowed to join a new guild, and the GMs are going to be bombarded with all these sob stories and convenient life-changing epiphanies.

With the general abilities out now, you don't even have to join a guild to get extraordinary abilities. There's even less reason to allow guild hopping than there was before. There's no pressure to join a guild quickly, only to realize you didn't think about it enough and you think you made the wrong choice. You can take your time researching and getting a feel for a guild before you join, and get plenty of powerful abilities with generalization while you do that.

TL;DR: My vote on any allowance of changing guilds is a no. Quitting: yes. Joining a second one after quitting: no. And once one exception is made, everyone's going to cry out that they have a right to be an exception, too.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Avedri » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:24 am

Bryce's monster post
The problem I see with that assessment and this is a problem that I've experienced with certain elements of Clok (Corvus for example) is that there is not enough of IC RP from NPCs or leaders to justify these intense black/white world views. This is something that has also extended to the so-called conflict between Shadgard/Corvus. Some GMs or a singular lore post says "Ohhh this is awful this is bad" but then the player community has no reaction to it and there is no guidance or leadership from NPCs.

Let's take the Rook Parlour for example, I've written numerous letters to the Rook Parlour leadership about a variety of issues or situations to try and understand how a rook should approach certain situations, I've tried to have conversations with them in game. I've never gotten a response, so I try to act as a wise leader to PC newcomers or those who want to converse but I really have no direction from an NPC and nothing outside of a post like that suggests that while mysterious and wanting to offer deniability, they have never actually made a statement about leaving the guild or the rules of using nether in public spaces or what kind of things we're doing with that mass stockpile of herbs. So if I choose to leave, I would frankly be rather shocked if my character got harassed, because I've been a good little Rook and it feels like they are all reasonable people.

I feel like the GMs have a certain understanding about their guilds and NPCs but as players, we literally need some bashing over the head from time to time with a concept. This isn't to say that GMs should be responsible for driving player engagement or direction through NPCs, I just feel like if you want to get a point across, don't just bury it in some post or a single line on the wiki that is open for interpretation. Also, be please continue to be open to what your players are driving as far as these viewpoints. I recognize that you guys built this space but we are the ones who are coming back to play in it.

Also on the contrast of this, I will say that the Church has had a lot of NPC interaction and I feel like those who are committed to the Church have a lot of IC leaders to consult and use as examples. Same thing with Claw, you know where you stand.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Bryce » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:46 am

I'd assume Rook Parlour wouldn't be happy about you walking out with all their secret knowledge and no longer holding yourself accountable to the organization. You also get a line about membership being for life and that there's no turning back when you ask a recruiter about initiation. I don't think it has anything to do with how well-behaved you were as a member.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Avedri » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:03 pm

I think that sums up my point. I got a line when I joined the organization over three years ago and no other guild-directed RP to back it up? If suddenly I did leave and someone hassled me about it, that's not a very enjoyable game experience.

I'm not excusing consequences, but don't put them on characters if you're not down to give them rewards or engagement. Feels wrong, man. Feels wrong.

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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Zoiya » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:08 pm

There is always going to be accountability for your decisions, this includes when you decide on a guild, that is a huge decision. There are always going to be certain guilds where leaving will put you up a creek without a paddle. There are going to be guilds where leaving is never a real possibility. This isn't just an RP thing guys, it's a balance thing as well. We can't just brainwash you and magic POOF, you don't know how to do A B or C anymore. If this ever would be a thing, it would be extremely rare and all ramifications from it will be considered well in advance.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Bryce » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:09 pm

Guess we'll be happy to just differ, then. I don't need to be reminded regularly by NPCs of the agreements I have with my guild.
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Avedri » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:16 pm

Zoiya wrote:There is always going to be accountability for your decisions, this includes when you decide on a guild, that is a huge decision. There are always going to be certain guilds where leaving will put you up a creek without a paddle. There are going to be guilds where leaving is never a real possibility. This isn't just an RP thing guys, it's a balance thing as well. We can't just brainwash you and magic POOF, you don't know how to do A B or C anymore. If this ever would be a thing, it would be extremely rare and all ramifications from it will be considered well in advance.
Yeah, sorry for derailing a bit. I'm not even trying to make it about leaving a guild. I can understand how unfair/imbalanced it would be to have two different abilities from different guilds and would assume that once you left a guild you wouldn't have access to the previous abilities or knowledge.

I just saw the whole idea of being ostracized, harassed or whatever seems silly unless there have been significant RP leading up to that. Because like I said, why would it be okay to put a character through the consequences when there hasn't be any reward RP to warrant direction or involvement.

Thanks for at least considering this GMs. I'm not interested, but I don't like absolutes that inhibit RP.
Bryce wrote:Guess we'll be happy to just differ, then. I don't need to be reminded regularly by NPCs of the agreements I have with my guild.
Absenteeism creates apathy and indifference. That's all.

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Zoiya
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Zoiya » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:18 pm

Guilds should be about RP right now, and once things settle down we'll be getting to that more and more. Interacting with your peers and guildmasters should be a thing, sadly we're all pretty busy at the moment.
[CHAT - Lil' Skittles GM Zoiya escalates quickly]: *hugs Kent*
[CHAT - Kent "Gunney" Gunderman]: *gingerly hugs back*
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Vaylon
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Re: Generalized Abilities Concerns

Post by Vaylon » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:17 am

Bryce wrote:Guess we'll be happy to just differ, then. I don't need to be reminded regularly by NPCs of the agreements I have with my guild.
I think it's necessary. For example, there's supposed to be a rivalry between Guild A and Guild B, but there are no players who took the rivalry seriously. In fact, when I brought up the rivalry as a reason my character did something, other players laughed at me for it.
"I hope you have not been leading a double life, pretending to be wicked and being really good all the time. That would be hypocrisy." - The Importance of Being Earnest, Oscar Wilde

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