Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

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Jaster
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Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:17 am

Hi ya'll!

Your friendly neighborhood Jaster, here! I'd like to discuss some pressing issues and concerns (displeasures) I have with certain alleged events happening both in and out of game. Please read my post in its entirety before replying.

As the title of my topic implies, I have heard of some wars and rumors of wars (rumors of rumors, if you will). These rumors have to do with a certain group (clique) of players of this here game that we all love (CLOK) that seem to have personally taken it upon themselves to initiate an IC and OOC war on the characters (both IC and OOC character) of a number of certain other players of this game.

This alleged clique of players seem to have made it a goal of theirs to indiscriminately target other players, ones of whom they dislike OOCly (probably for actions they've performed against them ICly), and make their experience here at CLOK as repulsive as possible. Perhaps this is simply an attempt at revenge for IC actions (or maybe even OOC actions, does it matter?), or perhaps it is an attempt to compel these people to leave the game for some perceived idea that the loss of those players would be greatly beneficial to the game in some way.

I cannot substantiate any claims, and will not go into any sort of detail about the particular claims (for now), but if they are true (we may never know), then I am greatly displeased with the actions of some people who claim to support this game. Holding OOC grudges against other players and pursuing that ICly is extremely detrimental to the game and the reputation of the game. As I have mentioned previously in other posts on this BBS, for a game the size of CLOK, losing any player for any reason is not good for the game (no matter how much you may dislike them or the characters they play). This holds particularly true when the parties involved are devoted players, as I would be willing to bet that, in this case, the parties of both sides of this conflict ARE devoted players. However, I do feel as though it would be in all of these devoted player's best interests to reevaluate their standards and expectations for this game.

To the GMs of CLOK, I would expect you to be fair to all players involved in this game (as I've always trusted you to be), regardless of whatever OOC relationship or feelings you may have towards them. I will always hold you to a high standard, because I hold myself to a high standard. This is not an attack, only an expression of my own stance on the subject. If you were to be involved in this alleged conflict, and I mean unfairly involved, then I would be extremely disappointed in you and would certainly begin to question the trust I have placed in you to nurture this community to the gain of everyone involved.

To any players who may or may not be involved in this conflict that may or may not exist, I would also be disappointed in you. We are all adults here, and we all love this game. Surely, because of that, we should all be able to work together to better the community and game that we participate in. Regardless of how you may feel towards another player (or their character), please remember that they are here for the same reason as you, the betterment of CLOK and the enjoyment of the game.

As I want this to be an "OPEN FORUM!", any and all people, players and GMs, are welcome to comment. I very much encourage you to express your own concerns or displeasure with the game or the current (real or perceived) direction of the game without regard to your social standing.

Please continue to be civil and respectful, and I am confident that we can make a great and positive impact on our community through open discussion!

Thanks!

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jirato » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:48 am

I'm going to avoid from commenting on any such events, either perceived or real, for what I would think would be obvious reasons. Anything that develops out of it requiring GM intervention would be strictly between the GM and the parties involved.

I do want to just say one thing though:
To the GMs of CLOK, I would expect you to be fair to all players involved in this game (as I've always trusted you to be), regardless of whatever OOC relationship or feelings you may have towards them. I will always hold you to a high standard, because I hold myself to a high standard. This is not an attack, only an expression of my own stance on the subject. If you were to be involved in this alleged conflict, and I mean unfairly involved, then I would be extremely disappointed in you and would certainly begin to question the trust I have placed in you to nurture this community to the gain of everyone involved.
The players are what make CLOK. You could say, in that way, I love the players, since I love CLOK and without them it'd just be an empty world with a bunch of bored GMs running around doing nothing. I also love the support players have provided. Words of encouragement, suggestions and feedback, just being there, and yeah, Patreon too.

With that said, I don't give a rats ass about who's who when it comes to things such as POLICY 3, or really ANY violations. My best friend could play CLOK (He doesn't though), my girlfriend could play CLOK (I keep trying but she doesn't either), Rias could play CLOK (Oh, he does!), and if any one of them started breaking policy, I would deal with them just the same way I would any other player. If it came down to it, yes, I'd even ban them from my own game.

So, please don't just jump to radical assumptions.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:58 am

Thank you for your contributions, Jirato! I appreciate your devotion to unwavering fairness in this game.
Jirato wrote:So, please don't just jump to radical assumptions.
Certainly, this is why I was speaking hypothetically when addressing GM involvement, and expressed my trust in the GM staff thus far. I apologize if you felt targeted, and were thus made to reply defensively, in any way. That was far from my intention in initiating this forum.

Once again, thank you for considering and addressing my expressed concerns.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Sneaky » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:52 pm

I had no idea that there were such rumors. I know there are some people who are not very liked in game, but always figured it was due to their own actions and behaviors. The implication that there is a group attempting to drive off other players based on ooc feelings is really astonishing to me as I haven't personally seen anything of the sort, though I have been rather out of touch with the game recently, and I don't talk to a lot of you on an ooc level other than the in game chat. If this is true, I hope the people involved on the wrong side will see that they're harming the game as a whole rather than making it better for themselves or others.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Liani » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:06 pm

This makes me sad. My stance is this. I don't give a care about who you are out of game. Hell. My boyfriend plays this game and some of my characters can't stand one of his. If you treat me well ic, i'll treat you well ic. if you treat me bad ic, there will probably be consequences. I'm not in high school and I don't feel I need to act as if I am. if you make me feel uncomfortable ooc enough to stop me from playing, I will have a conversation with a gm. To be honest, knowing that some of this is going on ooc makes me not want to play because it brings about the question, what are their motives. Are they legit ooc or do I need to keep to myself till they're done?

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by merin » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:24 pm

I have been playing Clok for near two years. I don’t’ have any of the strongest/most powerful/probably too many characters. But I think that is a testament to my enjoyment of the game – I want to see and be a part of it all. It was a different place then than it is now. Part of that is a good thing, part of that isn’t.

In relation to the players, I can say that I don’t like some of your characters. I wish they would all die and the lost lands would never hear from them again – some are downright assholes, some are sleezeballs, some are annoying, winy little turds. That’s your character, though. I’ll give an example. I did ask the person behind this character if I could use them. I’ll use Fayne as my example. At a time, I hated her character. She was anooying, in my opinion, and was wining about thigns that, in my opinion, I felt she did herself. When Fayne goes on chat, though, I shouldn’t, and don’t, view her as a winy, annoying person – her player is actually quite fun to talk to. That goes the same for most of the people in Clok, I’ve noticed. At least at this current time. There was a time where I couldn’t stand to have chat on because of a good deal of things being talked about that I didn’t care to partake in. Was it enough for me to leave? No. I’m still here.

On the other side of it. I’ve not been a fan – and still am not a fan – of certain things that have been put into the game and how the game functions. I respect the GMs to a high degree. Jirato and Rias and the others put in a lot of work for our entertainment. Is all of it good? No. Is all of it bad? Of course not.

Having said all that, I think that Jaster has done something that I support completely. Weather or not we all like each other, in character or out, we all like what we have come here for. We all like CLok, and that deserves some degree fo kinship. It doesn’t matter if there are rumors and such flying around. The fact of the matter is, we should give each other a little bit of respect. We may hate each other, we may be real good friends or in relationships with others, but we’re all Clok players, or we’re all Clok GMs – if you’re reading this, it includes you, what ever stance you may be.

For me, I’m a player, mostly, and, weather or not I like you as a person, you help bring something to a world that I enjoy to visit most days, even if it’s to just idle while I do the rest of my schoolwork. I like coming here, and, like you or not, I wouldn’t like it if you weren’t involved.

I really hope these things mean something to other people, too. If these rumors and alligations are flying around, remember that, if it does. If you drive people off, as Jaster said, it ruines something you like, too. We can’t love everyone – in character or out, but we can coexist, in character and out.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Fayne » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:51 pm

I don't really want to get too involved in this for personal reasons, but I will say one thing: rumors and whispers are the reason we have problems OOC. I understand that there are things that should be kept IC secrets, but for things like this, secrets hurt rather help. Transparency isn't always the smartest option, but I am letting it be known that I at least will be transparent in these things. I will approach people OOC that I hear rumors about and talk with them about it, I will talk with other people about it, and I will make my own conclusions on the matter. So first of all, don't share gossip about people with me unless you want everyone I talk with to also hear it, and don't expect me to take what you say at face value. Sometimes people have a way of projecting their own guilt onto others, so it may actually be the accuser who is guilty rather than the accused.

Personally, I find the possibility of a group of players banding together to intentionally drive off even one player absurd and highly unlikely. For my own part, if I find out who these rumors are about, I'd try to check facts by talking with them and whoever started the rumor. And if, for whatever reason, any rumors were to start circulating about me, I would hope someone would approach me about them. I'm like Fayne in that I'm usually completely candid with people, I don't tell lies or half-truths intentionally.

So, to wrap things up, the only thing I'd really like people to take from my post is that sometimes, transparency is the best solution. Even if you'd like to collect evidence to expose someone's misdeeds, the simple act of revealing that you know what they are up to can sometimes make the person stop entirely. It can also make others aware that there are issues they should look out for, and it can also prevent action being taken against the wrong people.

Completely unrelated to the rest of my post, if any of you don't talk to much OOC, or at all, feel free to send me tells or PMs, or ask for my Skype info. I'd love a few more friends OOC.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Dorn » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:06 pm

I'd just like to point out, a thread was actually opened up about character actions and explaining things after the last time there was a massive hooplah about cross IC/OOC interactions. It still exists.

Other than that, always surprises me just how much is going on that I don't know about even with such a small population.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Fayne » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:25 pm

Dorn wrote:I'd just like to point out, a thread was actually opened up about character actions and explaining things after the last time there was a massive hooplah about cross IC/OOC interactions. It still exists.
Where is this thread? I've tried looking for it a bit, and I can't find it anymore.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Dorn » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:25 pm

Fayne wrote:
Dorn wrote:I'd just like to point out, a thread was actually opened up about character actions and explaining things after the last time there was a massive hooplah about cross IC/OOC interactions. It still exists.
Where is this thread? I've tried looking for it a bit, and I can't find it anymore.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5370
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:47 pm

I would like to point out that I have no reason to distrust anything I have heard. I personally have no bones in this fight, other than that it relates to CLOK and the health of the game. However, I was contacted OOCly by a player who I have had no OOC contact with outside of occasional tells in game. The fact that they went through the trouble to contact me, despite my busy schedule and the little amount of time I have been giving to CLOK lately, was a sign (to me at least) that the situation is dire, indeed.

This is the only reason I went ahead and opened this forum. As a long time player and supporter of this game, I felt it was necessary for me to do this in hopes of improving the health of the community, and the game.

I'm not pointing fingers, I'm not picking fights, but I am hoping to provide a forum for other players who have either felt that they were unable to have a voice or feel too victimized to voice their cocerns in any rational or reasonable way.

If anybody is reading any of this and feeling as if any part of it is about them, it is likely because they are on or have been on one side or the other, the victim or the victimizer.

I encourage everybody to think about the state of the game, and their place in it, and make a thoughtful, rational, and reasonable response in this forum if they feel so led.

Thank you to everybody who has participated so far. Your thoughts and opinions are deeply appreciated.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Tamsin » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:37 pm

I agree with the people saying this is sad, and I'd be even sadder to hear it's really true. I hope it clears up soon though. I've seen some people get mean on ooc levels in rp games before and it's never pretty.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Dakhal » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:13 pm

I hate everyone equally. No need to feel any sort of special hate from me. That is all.

I also suggest people get thicker skin.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Fayne » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:31 pm

I really do hope that who ever approached you about a problem gets it resolved soon, preferably in a way where everybody gets along in the end and no one ends up having to leave or get banned.

I myself have been a victim. Both times I have taken an extended hiatus has been because of negative interactions, either OOC or ic to a ridiculous extent. The first time was probably nothing more then my own perceptions messing with me, since I wasn't really connected with anyone OOC at the time.

I've been saying it a lot lately, and I'll say it again: I really wish people could leave OOC issues OOC, and in character issues in character.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Vaylon » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:39 pm

First of all, let me say that I'm glad you posted this, Jaster. I think this is a subject that has needed addressing for quite some time. All of your concerns are real and valid, and I've spoken to other players who have similar thoughts. However, I will not be speaking for them; I can speak only for myself. I encourage others to speak up if they have had similar experiences.
Jaster wrote:This alleged clique of players seem to have made it a goal of theirs to indiscriminately target other players, ones of whom they dislike OOCly (probably for actions they've performed against them ICly), and make their experience here at CLOK as repulsive as possible. Perhaps this is simply an attempt at revenge for IC actions (or maybe even OOC actions, does it matter?), or perhaps it is an attempt to compel these people to leave the game for some perceived idea that the loss of those players would be greatly beneficial to the game in some way.
I can't say one way or the other as to whether or not there is, in fact, a clique of players out there who are targeting others. I suspect that there is, and I suspect I am one of their targets, but I can offer no hard evidence to the fact. On the other hand, I can verify, as can others, that I have been maliciously targeted in-character by at least one player for out-of-character reasons and that they have collaborated with others out-of-character to target me. I believe their goal is to force me to quit playing. There are other things that have happened to me as well:

I have gotten an out-of-character threat in tells from a player as a result of in-character actions. (By the way, I log everything.) Brand-new or previously unknown characters, after little or no interaction with them, have made severe and blatantly false accusations against my character. My character was subject to vicious gossip in-character from at least one player who used multiple alts to spread the gossip. Players have used knowledge that they gained out-of-character or through bugs to make in-character accusations against my character.
Jaster wrote:To any players who may or may not be involved in this conflict that may or may not exist, I would also be disappointed in you. We are all adults here, and we all love this game. Surely, because of that, we should all be able to work together to better the community and game that we participate in. Regardless of how you may feel towards another player (or their character), please remember that they are here for the same reason as you, the betterment of CLOK and the enjoyment of the game.
I do love CLOK, and I have struggled to stay as in-character as possible despite everything that has happened -- despite receiving no official support or resolution. My character is a thief. He has a standard of ethics. If he steals from your character, there was probably a reason for it. Sometimes it's simply opportunistic theft: your character left his stuff lying around and unguarded, for instance. Sometimes it's because he thinks your character is being an asshole. And sometimes it's organizational loyalty that prompts Vaylon to steal.

If you, as a player, don't like those things and don't like being stolen from, then I suggest you petition the staff to remove the Guild of Thieves. I expect that to be a spirited debate. Trying to force me to quit, however, is not the way to go. And it also won't work: I'm now determined to continue playing.

Another reason other players dislike my character -- and I know this for a fact -- is because of his personality. Yes, he is a flirt and a Casanova. I'll never really be able to understand why his personality infuriates so many players. If his personality annoys you, I would encourage you instead to show that in-character (and don't complain if Vaylon reacts). In general, use the out-of-character feeling to do something interesting in-character, but don't try to force me to quit the game because you don't like my character's personality.

If there is anyone reading this thread who has a grievance against Vaylon for something he has done or said, or a question as to why he did this or that, I encourage you to post in the thread that Dorn linked to earlier -- viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5370 -- so that we keep this thread on-topic.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:25 pm

Thank you for voicing your concerns, Vaylon! They are very much appreciated.

I understand how you feel in some respects. I, too, have had occasions where other characters have been able to utilize: 1) OOC knowledge to treat my character unfairly, or 2) Knowledge gained through bugs to treat my character unfairly. The unfair treatment typically comes in the form of being blamed for thefts (that I certainly sometimes actually committed) when their character had no fair IC reason to suspect that my character was involved. I almost always let it slide when it happens, because I usually don't feel it is worthwhile to argue the point, and I also usually don't mind denying my involvement and pointing out that any evidence they may have is probably circumstantial and insubstantial (it becomes a he said she said, in other words).

Still, feeling as though you are being targeted unfairly (even if you DID commit the crime, as they say) can be frustrating.

There has been at least one occasion where I did try to argue the point, and it turned out that the other character had indeed caught me red handed (it was substantiated by a log). Sometimes people get lucky! I was very quick to apologize and admit I was wrong. And then I did what I always do anyway: Deny, deny, deny, and cause as much doubt as possible. :D

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by jilliana » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:36 pm

I would like to start off by thanking Jaster for taking the time out of his busy schedule to start this thread. I for one am incredibly grateful that someone did and managed to do it in such a professional and respectful manner.

Every game has a clique of sorts. That's just naturally what happens when a number of individuals that know each other and convene in one place. However, it's another thing entirely when these people decide that in their haste to become something popular or useful, they intentionally or unintentionally spread toxic habits.
Most of my characters have fallen victim to this toxic behavior in some form. I find it childish and disappointing. Could I develop a thicker skin? Maybe, but a thicker skin doesn't replace that feeling that someone's actions in character are being influenced by out of character feelings and behaviors that shouldn't be the case if one is separating in from out of character. I certainly don't like the feeling that I can't tell someone something important that my character is supposed to just because I know they will use it on another character or tell the rest of their clique out of character and I pay the price later on.
It surprises me that a lot of what Jaster and other people have brought up on the thread thus far isn't more noticeable as these have been my experiences for well over a year now.
Whether or not that one dislikes the way someone's character is played shouldn't get in the way of the simple fact that if one doesn't want to interract with them, don't get involved. Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to talk to another player character.

I back Jaster in his statement about holding the GMs to a higher standard than the rest of us. We are here to play the game you spend your free time fiddling with and building. However, in spending our own time playing CLOK, the game also becomes ours. Whether you see that this toxic behavior is happening or not, I would hope that you would trust us to tell you how we feel and respond as professionally and respectfully as possible even if you disagree.
As dirty as the laundry might seem sometimes, it is good to get things out in the open to encourage honesty and transparency from all involved.

Here are a few questions for both GMs and players that I wanted to put out there. It is my hope that some of you contemplate them and hopefully we come to a satisfactory resolution to this problem.

• GMs - Do you as a GM react and act according to your own feelings towards a guild or players without thinking through to the way your players would feel about the decision?
• GMs- Do you as a GM feel so strongly against a certain type of character on CLOK that you would hinder the roleplay encouraged by the very mechanics of the game you are running?
• GMs - Do you believe that there should be a balance of good and evil characters on CLOK? Do you think that an imbalance between these has any effect on conflict and roleplay?
• GMs - What do you as a GM believe is a healthy resolution to the problem of your players not keeping things purely in character and not having substancial proof in game that a certain thing is happening? It is certainly not a new one, but how would you keep it from appearing on yet another thread?
• GMs - How seriously did you take the suggestions and feelings as put forth by the survey that the staff suggested we take a part in back in September? Do you ever plan to act on some of the feelings expressed by the playerbase?
• GMs - Do you take the time to prove or disprove, even to yourself, if a certain rumor going around on CLOK is being spread for the sake of healthy conflict or just because a player decided to be nasty out of the blue not mattering if you like the players behind the characters?

• Player - How do you as a player suggest this problem should be resolved with your fellow players not being able to separate and not having the appropriate in character proof that your own character is acting a certain way? This is whether or not you believe it exists or not.
• Player - What kind of environment would you like to be a part of? Are you okay with CLOK being a place where the mostly good characters are being supported, thus throwing off the balance of an already small game?
• Player - How would you feel about your fellow players getting away with behaving a certain way to the extent to where you might feel that a certain line of roleplay is going to be hindered just because you aren't a part of a certain social standard established by people that can't separate?
• Player - How do you feel about making CLOK a place that although you aren't expected to be friendly with everyone, it becomes an environment where all kinds of healthy conflict is encouraged?
• Player - Do you feel that you are justified in behaving without sufficient in character proof when you treat a character a certain way or do you follow a certain line of ethics that allow you to give the proof for acting a certain way should someone ask you about it?

I certainly ask myself these questions and a few others. The most important question I ask myself is if I would spend my time on a game where my efforts, feelings and thoughts aren't being considered but merely pushed aside as the exaggerations of a minority group on an already small game. I certainly have the choice to play or not, but it is sad that in the two years that I've played CLOK, it is no longer the place I go to for entertainment and amusement as it used to be. So much has changed and sadly a lot of it isn't for the good.

I'm glad we are given the opportunity at least this once to air our feelings. I look forward to seeing the positive changes that come from this.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Vaylon » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:42 pm

Jaster wrote:There has been at least one occasion where I did try to argue the point, and it turned out that the other character had indeed caught me red handed (it was substantiated by a log). Sometimes people get lucky! I was very quick to apologize and admit I was wrong. And then I did what I always do anyway: Deny, deny, deny, and cause as much doubt as possible. :D
Yes, and I would do the same if it turns out that I was caught red-handed. Though in-character my response would be similar: deny, deny, deny, obfuscate, muddy the waters -- whatever it took. Maybe even a little violence or blackmail if that's what it takes. It can be rough, being a thief.

As an aside, I find it amusing (despite my best efforts at making him be a special snowflake!) that Vaylon and Jaster are similar in personality. Yet I bet most people here wouldn't dream of treating Jaster the way they treat Vaylon. Yes, I certainly do find that interesting.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Liani » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:45 pm

I'm tired of he said she said. I'm also tired of this person is so and so's alt. Because then, chars who have never interacted are acting like asses to each other.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by merin » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:05 pm

• Player - How do you as a player suggest this problem should be resolved with your fellow players not being able to separate and not having the appropriate in character proof that your own character is acting a certain way? This is whether or not you believe it exists or not.

Life isn’t fair. If someone accuses my character of acting a certain way just to slander, I’d have to deal with it there – in character. It’s not really an out of character issue. If a whole bunch of people get together and start stuff out of character, I’m probably not going to even think about it, nor care. If I find myself not enjoying the character, then I’ll either retire him or take a step back and think. I’ve done this with jake a couple times (some of the changes and things happening have caused me to need a few days). If you really really want to put a stop to it, one character per player – that way people may consider that they may be next and care a little more about the characters. One thing I’ve spoken to Vidor frequently about is that Clok is just a game, and I’m going to treat it as such. If I lose enjoyment, I’ll either find something else I enjoy or stop playing – that simple. If a player can’t separate, that’s not my problem, and I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. If I’m causing any issues for you, then, talk to me about it like an adult and we’ll work it out. If people can’t prove anything or are starting stuff because they don’t like me, well, that’s life too. Get over it and either ignore them, kick their butts, or find an IC way to deal with it. If you really don’t enjoy it, nothing says you’ve got to be here. If it’s really not becoming fun for you, I feel that’s mostly on you. I know I’m just one person and if I need a step back, Clok will go on without me, and it’s on me – I’ll voice my problems or I’ll try to go along with things, and if I can’t I’ll take a few breaths and deal with it when I’m more clear-headed. I’m not going to lose any of my fun because some people decide to be hating.

• Player - What kind of environment would you like to be a part of? Are you okay with CLOK being a place where the mostly good characters are being supported, thus throwing off the balance of an already small game?

I don’t think Clok is mostly good characters. A lot of people are extremely shady. Just because the obvious good things are happening doesn’t mean the bad people aren’t being supported. We don’t know what’s all going on, unless this question is insinuating you do.

• Player - How would you feel about your fellow players getting away with behaving a certain way to the extent to where you might feel that a certain line of roleplay is going to be hindered just because you aren't a part of a certain social standard established by people that can't separate?

I don’t care. I’m going to play and find enjoyment how I’m going to. And if I find I can’t, I’ll leave. I love Clok for what it is, and truthfully I do have some problems with roleplay. I feel that it’s a little clicky and grindy and RP can be scarce at times, but whatever – I get it. I also feel that if people can’t separate then I don’t want to be associated with that, anyway. I do have my friends that play Clok. Even my own girlfriend [witch]-slapped me in character once and, while my character hated it, it was the funniest thing ever. I think a couple of my friends complain too mucha bout their characters and won’t hesitate to tell them so, but I don’t intentionally tell them how to play their characters, because they’re not mine. If people can’t separate and you have an issue with this, then, perhaps you should consider what’s going on with your playing. If it’s really effecting you, why? I don’t see how people, not being able to separate, really would prohibit you from roleplaying a certain way.

• Player - How do you feel about making CLOK a place that although you aren't expected to be friendly with everyone, it becomes an environment where all kinds of healthy conflict is encouraged?

As long as everyone keeps it healthy. From what I’m seeing right now, the people that are having issues are completely resorting to saying it’s because of out of character reasons. That’s what I have a problem with. I mean healthy conflict being an actual conflict, not just someone insulting the heck out of you because they’re jerks. I’ve played games where that happens, and needless to say, I don’t play there anymore. There’s a difference between conflict and toxicity.

• Player - Do you feel that you are justified in behaving without sufficient in character proof when you treat a character a certain way or do you follow a certain line of ethics that allow you to give the proof for acting a certain way should someone ask you about it?

Yeah. I cans tart rumors about anyone I want whenever I want, with no proof at all. It’s roleplay. I, personally, don’t do this, but nothing says it can’t be done. If someone can’t prove it then get out there and debunk rumors. If they have proof, maybe they’re not rumors, after all. Vaylon in my opinion is a perfect example of this – I’ve heard rumors in character. I can’t verify them short of asking many people, and therefore won’t act on them, but I will at least prepare for the fact they are true.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:24 pm

As an aside, I find it amusing (despite my best efforts at making him be a special snowflake!) that Vaylon and Jaster are similar in personality. Yet I bet most people here wouldn't dream of treating Jaster the way they treat Vaylon. Yes, I certainly do find that interesting.
I've had similar thoughts, and I find it interesting as well. I have no doubts there have been those who feel the same way about Jaster, and have even treated me differently because of it. I certainly always try to be fair in my character interactions, and there are often times when I don't do nearly as much as game mechanics would allow when it comes to thiefly activities. Even so, I feel tolerated most of the time, hated in the worst of times, and loved in the best of times.

I always try to understand that the character I play will rub many people the wrong way, and usually I can. Being as imperfect as I am, however, there are times when I have resented other people for how they react towards me. That certainly isn't fair for them, and it typically passes quickly when it does happen and no harm comes of it.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Sneaky » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:22 am

IDK how to do block quotes so I'm just pasting it in.
Vaylon. Yes, and I would do the same if it turns out that I was caught red-handed.
The problem with this sort of mentality is that it's not the player's job to provide evidence on an ooc level. If you do something and someone accuses you of doing it even though you felt like there was no possible way of you being seen, you shouldn't go out of character and say oh you had no idea it was me, how can you react that way. If that player has evidence or not it doesn't matter. People can still jump to conclusions, and you can't prove that the reason why they jumped to the conclusion that it was you was based on an ooc opinion or an IC opinion, so it isn't even worth debating. It's just better to move on from it as if it was based on IC reasoning. I've been blamed many a time for thefts that I had no part of, but I didn't bring it ooc, I delt with it IC, and encouraged the other party to do so as well. That is how I believe everything should be handled. Because if they have evidence or not, nobody can prove anything. We don't have cameras in game, we don't have video cameras in game, there's no DNA, no thumb prints. The only evidence there is are eye witness accounts of things happening. Sure logs can prove that something did actually happen on an ooc level, but in game everything is a he said she said situation because that's the way things were. It's why justice in yee olden days was so unjust. Influential people could get away with most everything, even if there were dozens of people who could testify against them. I'm just so sick of these ooc allegations. If they are happening or not, unless you have proof of intent it's near impossible to prove without a doubt. This is true for both sides. It's impossible for you to have a 100 percent chance of getting away with something because you absolutely do not have the ability to determine that. You do not know what other people are capable of, and you do not know what GMs are capable of. Anybody can roll a 1.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jirato » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:32 am

• GMs - Do you as a GM react and act according to your own feelings towards a guild or players without thinking through to the way your players would feel about the decision?
I'd love to say that we keep feeling out of it and maintain objective. But, we're only human, and I'll admit some feeling may occasionally influence decisions. The goal I strive for is to maintain 100% objective, but that's kind of impossible to do without being a robot, which, unfortunately, I'm not.

With that said, we do consider changes we make and how they'll affect players. We try to predict how people will react and what they will feel about it. But we weigh that with what we actually think is best for the vision of the world of CLOK and how we want it to run. Sometimes we know what we're doing is going to upset a bunch of people, but it's still something we think is best for CLOK. For example, removing infinite storage space vaults. We know it's going to hurt a lot of people. There's a lot of people that have hundreds and hundreds of items in their vault. We also know the new vault storage containers are crazy expensive. However, riln needs to be taken out of the economy, and we should be discouraging hoarding tendancies.
• GMs- Do you as a GM feel so strongly against a certain type of character on CLOK that you would hinder the roleplay encouraged by the very mechanics of the game you are running?
I don't believe any certain type of roleplay should ever be encouraged by mechanics. Mechanics and roleplay are two completely separate issues. With that said, certain types of characters are self-limiting. For example, a character can't really be a mass-murderer, a heinous thief, or the world's biggest sleaze without suffering consequences.
• GMs - Do you believe that there should be a balance of good and evil characters on CLOK? Do you think that an imbalance between these has any effect on conflict and roleplay?
No and no. I have absolutely no interest in "balancing" good and evil. If you want to be good, be good. If you want to be evil, be evil. Either way you're going to burn certain bridges and suffer consequences. This happens on both sides of the spectrum. It's largely a self-regulating system. If characters want to hate on good people, they can. If characters want to hate on evil people, they can. If players want to be all frustrated over good or evil characters, they can.
• GMs - What do you as a GM believe is a healthy resolution to the problem of your players not keeping things purely in character and not having substancial proof in game that a certain thing is happening? It is certainly not a new one, but how would you keep it from appearing on yet another thread?
There really isn't one. I'd answer "Complete and total removal of all OOC communication in-game", but that doesn't really stop anything, it simply hides it, since any such issues will just start occuring in out-of-game communications. But like I said, if a player is frustrated over a character, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If someone shares in their frustrations with friends, so what? It's a matter of trusting those people to separate OOC from IC. If you take your
IC frustrations OOC, not really in an abusive/disruptive manner but just as a means of venting, then that's fine. If you take your IC frustrations OOC, stew on them, form an angry mob, and get everyone and their pet dog to go after someone who you feel wronged you, across multiple characters who would have no reason to be involved, that'd be an issue.

• GMs - How seriously did you take the suggestions and feelings as put forth by the survey that the staff suggested we take a part in back in September? Do you ever plan to act on some of the feelings expressed by the playerbase?
We take all suggestions equally seriolusly, regardless of if they are from the survey or shared on the BBS. We're not going to implement a change just to "make players feel good" if we don't think it is in the best interest for CLOK, however. (Which isnt' to say that's why certain suggestions never see implementation - keep in mind I'm only one DEV and there's so much I can do in my limited free time).

• GMs - Do you take the time to prove or disprove, even to yourself, if a certain rumor going around on CLOK is being spread for the sake of healthy conflict or just because a player decided to be nasty out of the blue not mattering if you like the players behind the characters?
Well, I can tell you I've spent about three hours and probably looked through somewhere in the neighbrohood of 10000 lines of say, sayto, act, emote, whisper, esp, chat, question, tell, and reply logs over the past 3 days due to two emails I've received, so, I'd say I take it pretty seriously and do take time to investigate it.

However, if someone emails us some sort of grievance against another player due to what they feel is a result of OOC spillage or something, but then proceeds to try to take things into their own hands and tries to go on a crusade against the character or player in question, it kinda makes the investigation moot. If you have an issue with a person that you feel is severe enough to contact us about, at that point you should leave it to us and cease any further interactions. I will not even respond to such a request if I see that the person making the request is also trying to do a bunch of things on their own against the person they're complaining about.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by vidor » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:59 am

A few things:
Thieves aren't designed to be everyones' best friend -- Coanid hit it right. It's always going to be he said-she said. Someone whos' guild is based on stealing from others shouldn't expect to be universaly liked.
I don't know of any groups intentionally trying to screw someone over for ooc reasons. I do know individuals who strongly dislike other individuals for ic reasons, and act on those ic reasons. I feel like the type of players who would resort to such an ooc aggression are the players from whom we don't need to be afraid, because they're not the strongest or smartest.
I'll agree with Merin, as I often do. It's a game. If it upsets you, move on. If people react to you ic, have the respect for your fellow rpers that it's because of IC stuff. If you're so sure that it's because of ooc stuff, then trust the GMs to take care of it. If you can't do those things, then Clok isn't the right place for you, and your time is best used elsewhere.
I'd love it if people all got along. But that's not possible, because human. So we have to do cost-benefit -- if the problems are more than the enjoyment, then you have a choice to make.
I appreciate that people aren't using names for those who are part of the problem, but without doing so I don't see the benefit to this discussion. Noting that a group of people are being problematic, without being able to identify from whom or specifically how, is kind of two straw men tilting at windmills.

ydia
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by ydia » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:46 am

I have friends who play clok, and we talk ooc a lot, but I keep it separate. I dislike people IC for reasons my char has IC. For example since she has been used openly, even by herself I'll use Fayne. My character distrusts Fayne, but I have nothing against the player.
I think the biggest problem I've seen is it is obvious that a particular group, seems to always be friends with each other on all their alts. Your alts can still associate with each other and be friends, but the level wouldn't be the same.
For example, Liani and Ydia have become bestfriends, but on one of Liani's alts they are kinda friends, but it is the ok we'll hang out and exchange gifts, but not tell you every thing I can. And my characters meet any of her chars through rp not just instantly knowing each other.
I did the same with my husband when he created. rp it out realistically.
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