I am combining my thoughts from another thread into this one, to try and preserve the integrity of the other thread. This post is quite lengthy, in true Viali fashion, and no offense will be taken if you choose to skip it.
Characters treating other characters fairly or not is, I think, not an issue worthy of significant debate. Our characters are often in fact designed to be flawed, so we can play them in certain ways. Alexander judges the way people act from a different perspective than I would as a player. He will come to conclusions that I as a player would consider unfair. He will act in ways I as a player believe are foolish. I do not believe this means I am playing the game wrong, or wronging the players of the characters Alexander misjudges or misunderstands. Never mind that we, as players, are perfectly capable of truly misjudging, overreacting, and misinterpreting.
Please also consider that characters can act the way they do for reasons you simply do not know. None of us know all of what happens to other characters, what they hear, what they discuss with others, what they believe, what they conjecture. I should not immediately demand that another player explain their character's actions and accuse them of being in the wrong simply because I do not know their motivations for holding unfavorable opinions about Alexander. It does tend to happen, and how my character handles and responds to these situations is part of the game. It is part of playing a role. We are not the unblemished heroes of CLOK, always in the right. Our characters are flawed and make mistakes; we as players are flawed and make mistakes.
Vaylon wrote:Out-of-character, I find the accusations fairly amusing since I know that I haven't played Vaylon in that manner
Do keep in mind that is entirely possible to attempt to play your character in one manner, and to have others interpret this in a way you did not intend. This happens to me quite frequently with Alexander. I believe this is simply due to people having different experiences and perspectives, and is not necessarily a result of intentional malicious misinterpretation and slander. This is not to say that people will not exaggerate and spread rumors, as is quite common of people who dislike another. I see no reason to label these sorts of actions as out-of-character or unfair. We often see ourselves quite differently than others see us.
Vaylon wrote:Let's be reasonable: Vaylon is a thief. He's not a very good one, honestly, so I'm sure plenty of people have spotted him sneaking around. Is it honestly inconceivable to you that the actual reason Vaylon is sneaking around is because he's looking for things to steal, and people simply assume he's being a stalker or call him one because it sounds plausible? Or maybe there's some other reason they hate him, so they make up things about him?
This seems to me to be further evidence of in-character sources for these allegedly OOC rumors. If Vaylon is a thief and, as you admit, has been caught sneaking about and such, this seems like a very likely and legitimate source for the rumors. Those that have been affected negatively by Vaylon, for whatever reason, will likely latch onto these rumors and put effort into encouraging their circulation further. This is in no way an unbelievable situation, nor is it difficult to accept as in-character. Your enemies finding and using opportunities to further publicly demonize you is an entirely believable in-character action.
Vaylon wrote:I can think of at least one player who is insanely jealous of Vaylon out-of-character and who has made it his mission to ruin the game for me in any way he can.
My goodness. After some consideration, I will simply leave my comment at that.
Vaylon wrote:It is not a hypothetical but a fact that some or most of the in-character rumor about Vaylon was started because someone (or perhaps many someones) out-of-character dislikes me, the player, and my character. ... I find it plausible that you, too, contribute to the spread of these rumors in-character for out-of-character dislike (which you admit that you have).
You yourself provided believable in-character sources and reasons for people to spread unfavorable rumors about your character. I saw no such admission from Merin. His character dislikes yours for in-character reasons, and he as a player dislikes Vaylon as well. It is entirely possible to dislike both a character and their player, and still have one's own character act against that character for legitimate IC reasons. Disliking a character's player does not invalidate or make unfair your own character's actions against that character based on IC reasons.
My character has had a single interaction with Vaylon that I can clearly recall. His initial impressions were not overly favorable, due to his perceptions of Vaylon's attitude, perceived flawed logic, and treatment of one of my character's peers. While Alexander has not heard any of these nasty rumors about Vaylon yet, he would be more likely to give these rumors consideration due to this initial unfavorable impression. I hope this serves as an example of how one character can dislike another and hear and believe rumors for purely in-character reasons, with no OOC dislike of the player involved.
I assure you, I understand the frustrations of a character being misinterpreted unfavorably and having rumors spread about them that reinforce these misinterpretations. It has happened to Alexander, as well as other characters of mine. I imagine it has happened to a very many characters, in fact. I do not think we should make the leap to the conclusion that there are bands of players out to ruin the game for others for OOC reasons. If these bands of nasty players exist, I am sure staff will monitor and handle the problem. They are at least as invested in keeping players in CLOK as we are. We should also accept that sometimes, other characters will dislike ours and come to or believe misguided conclusions about them.
You seem to be struggling with the idea that a number of characters would take issue with yours. The way others have described your character, as well as the way you yourself have described him, based on his guild membership, and by the nature of social interactions and how rumors can propagate, I can certainly see how your character could potentially generate a significant circulation of unfavorable rumors. This is not to say that I think your character is bad, or deserving of this. Rumors and negative reputations often come upon those who do not deserve them. Your reactions and comments here on the BBS do lead me to wonder whether you are perhaps putting too much stock into this idea that there is a coalition of players on a crusade against you, trying to force you to quit the game, instead of accepting the fact that several characters may dislike yours for legitimate, in-character reasons.
These are just my own thoughts and conjectures, of course, as I am not involved in the situation and there may well be overwhelming evidence that you are indeed suffering from OOC attacks with no IC foundation. I trust you have sent all relevant information to the staff, whom I am sure will address the issue if there is due evidence that this is in fact an OOC issue and violation of Policy 3. On that note, I do not believe disliking and banding against a character for IC reasons is a violation of Policy 3. It would be impossible to have such a policy with the varying factions and character alignments that we do in CLOK.
Jilliana wrote:• Player - How do you as a player suggest this problem should be resolved with your fellow players not being able to separate and not having the appropriate in character proof that your own character is acting a certain way? This is whether or not you believe it exists or not.
I would report concerns to staff and deal with in-character happenings as normal. We are strong, and those whom resort to childish antics to ruin another's experience for their own petty satisfaction are weak. Do not allow them a victory over you by providing them the reaction they desire.
Jilliana wrote:• Player - What kind of environment would you like to be a part of? Are you okay with CLOK being a place where the mostly good characters are being supported, thus throwing off the balance of an already small game?
I agree with Merin's assessment. The majority of CLOK's characters appear to be more near to neutral, if we are going to make statements based on alignments. The evil characters will naturally have more enemies, as their evil actions often negatively impact not only the good, but also the neutral, and oftentimes even their fellow evil peers. Evil is often selfish and will jealously guard power and influence; that is not exactly conducive to a friendly group environment. Evil also often has little regard for rules or ethics, which will make them more prone to butt heads with various authorities and suffer penalties. Those who choose to play an evil chararcter in any environment, not just CLOK, should be prepared to have their evil character treated as just that: evil. It is a self-imposed challenge, and one that can be quite enjoyable and rewarding, though it requires the right mindset and the acceptance that one will often have the short end of the stick. There is perhaps nothing as fun as playing the role of the villain that everyone loves to hate.
Jilliana wrote:• Player - How would you feel about your fellow players getting away with behaving a certain way to the extent to where you might feel that a certain line of roleplay is going to be hindered just because you aren't a part of a certain social standard established by people that can't separate?
Like Merin, I would not allow other players to hinder my own character idea and how I play him. Again, if I believed there was an OOC issue, I would report concerns to staff. I do not feel I completely understand this question, particularly about a line of roleplay being hindered due to not being part of an undesirable social standard.
Jilliana wrote:• Player - How do you feel about making CLOK a place that although you aren't expected to be friendly with everyone, it becomes an environment where all kinds of healthy conflict is encouraged?
I find myself generally enjoying the conflict in CLOK. I attribute this partially to frequently ignoring the Chat channel, petty conflicts, and those that take the conflicts personally or complain about balancing and fairness issues. Conflict is never evenly balanced. When you must fight harder, the victories are made all the sweeter.
Jilliana wrote:• Player - Do you feel that you are justified in behaving without sufficient in character proof when you treat a character a certain way or do you follow a certain line of ethics that allow you to give the proof for acting a certain way should someone ask you about it?
I strive to only play my character in-character. I will not deny my personal feelings occasionally influence my actions, but I do my best to avoid that. I do allow occasional assumptions due to not being able to be logged in 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and based on the concept of NPCs being present without being present as actual characters in the room.
As for myself, I have had some minor suspicions of characters taking IC action based on OOC feelings or knowledge on rare occasion. I have never observed it to be a large problem, and if I am simply unaware of a more widespread issue at hand, I hope and trust it will be resolved by action on part of both staff and playerbase.
Jilliana wrote:However, I encourage a lot of you to consider asking a lot of the players that were at one point long-time, dedicated players and ask them why they stopped coming around.
In my case, the answer is simply that life happened. I am trying to make a comeback, because I miss CLOK.
Vidor wrote:Also keep in mind that spreading gossip and rumors and slander about suspected favoritism with other players is just like spreading a sickly poison to the game community.
I simply thought this was worth repeating.
Vidor wrote:If, as Jaster says, our goal is to make the game better, then this airing of dirty laundry does nothing more than put us at one anothers' throats.
I do worry about this as well. We've already seen one player state that the concerns brought up in this thread have caused her to consider not playing anymore and, as far as I could tell, she was not involved in or even aware of these suspected issues until reading about them here. Encouraging one another to speak openly to one another like adults is certainly good, as is bringing awareness to a potential issue. Exclaiming that the sky is falling and having everyone chime in, however, may start a panic and be detrimental to the community. My impression is that there are merely a few who have these specific suspicions and concerns, but as the thread progresses, things are beginning to be made out now that the community both on the GM side and the player side is crumbling, and spreading this impression is unhealthy for our community.
(Alexander clenches a fist momentarily, then stops and calms himself with visible effort.)
[FROM Eira (OOC)]: LET IT OUT, MAN!