Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

jilliana
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by jilliana » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:46 am

Jirato wrote:
• GMs- Do you as a GM feel so strongly against a certain type of character on CLOK that you would hinder the roleplay encouraged by the very mechanics of the game you are running?
I don't believe any certain type of roleplay should ever be encouraged by mechanics. Mechanics and roleplay are two completely separate issues. With that said, certain types of characters are self-limiting. For example, a character can't really be a mass-murderer, a heinous thief, or the world's biggest sleaze without suffering consequences.
This one warrants a bit of explanation on my part. We can look at the example of some lets say, outright evil or shadier guilds in the game. Some of us do feel that we are being punished for pursuing a line of roleplay that is encouraged by the mechanic of say, stealing or killing. The game already has consequences set in place should we get caught, some mechanical and some not so much.
The results of stealing and getting caught are getting the reputation for a nasty pick pocket or thief even if you are not a part of the guild itself. If one is caught in town, they get thrown into jail and made to pay a hefty fine in addition to getting the reputation. Some of us actually enjoy this type of roleplay. It encourages some fun and a healthy amount of conflict. It is another player's decision if they want to log out in the middle of the wilderness with a wagon full of gems and run the risk of having their stuff stolen by anyone who comes by with a horse. Same goes for any kind of possible conflict that results in PK.

The consequences and mechanical penalties for shady actions are already balanced, but lately a few of us have felt that some changes have been made to directly reflect a GM or possibly the entire staff's feelings that these consequences were not enough.
I wish that the staff were a bit more neutral towards the players and their line of roleplay...or at least appeared more so.

I'm the first to tell anyone that CLOK is just a game. I go through periods of inactivity when CLOK feels like work instead of play. However, I encourage a lot of you to consider asking a lot of the players that were at one point long-time, dedicated players and ask them why they stopped coming around. Some if not all of their answers will reflect what we have been trying to state in this thread.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by merin » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:56 am

Solution is simple:
1. if you've gotten stolen from, watch your crap.
2. If you're the one stealing, don't get caught or you're going to have that reputation.
3. If you have a reputation of stealing, don't complain about it, especially if it's what you do. If it's not true the rep won't stick. If you've got the reputation of getting your crap stolen, then, maybe you should keep a closer eye on your stuff.

Stealing is bad, kids, in and out of game. If you don't want to be punished by people who hate their stuff going missing, both in and out of games, don't play it. That goes for anything. If you can't play the game, get the heck off the field. Just because a GM posts a list of known corvites doesn't mean anything. Just because a town doesn't want their stuff stolen, either, then fine. Play a smarter thief and don't get caught, or don't play a thief. that simple.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by vidor » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:05 am

Statements like "a few of us" "some of us" have no basis without backing it up. The faceless mob isn't persuasive. If you feel like gms are treating guilds poorly, talk TO THE GMS ABOUT IT, not other players, because we can't fix it. Be prepared to say what, how, and when was done to make you feel like you're not getting enough support, and what, when, and how the GMs could (should) fix it, in your opinion.
If someone chooses to play against the grain, they shouldn't be upset when they're discriminated against for doing it. It's the nature of the beast and, I would argue, a part of the thing, rather than a bug or a flaw. If that doesn't grukk to your satisfaction, change your rp or reroll. It's not easy to play "bad" characters. It shouldn't be.
I also recognize some players don't like some GMs. That's the nature of the beast. If it's so bad, and the GMs are so horribly unfair, there are tons of other muds with tons of other gms which probably welcome the style of rp and mechanical benefit you're looking for.

In short, a reminder of Jirato's words earlier this year. Remember them.
Also keep in mind that spreading gossip and rumors and slander about suspected favoritism with other players is just like spreading a sickly poison to the game community. I suggest you use extreme caution and consideration when telling other players that you feel there is an issue of bias from another GM.

If, as Jaster says, our goal is to make the game better, then this airing of dirty laundry does nothing more than put us at one anothers' throats. It's childish and unhelpful and needs to stop if we want to keep this game going. If you have a problem, be an adult and deal with it as instructed. If you can't, or won't do that, I doubt very much that I'll miss you. If this ends up being the unpopular opinion, then that definitely tells me something about where I should be spending my time.
Last edited by vidor on Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Liani » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:08 am

This can be said for a lot of things. Forgive me for sounding horrible and unsophisticated, but if I fart in public, someone's going to notice and think something about me. I know that. So I will try not to fart in public. But if I have to, then I'm going to need to deal with those consequences.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by reese » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:40 am

This is intensely frustrating for me to read. I haven't played here long at all, but while the names and details are different, the general story is sounding depressingly familiar to me.

Games are a cooperative venture meant to be enjoyable. If your opponent isn't enjoying playing against you, it's not your opponent who is at fault. If you dislike someone, avoid them. If someone is avoiding you, let them.

Roleplaying isn't an excuse to ignore civility.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Fayne » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:58 am

I think the main issue is people taking natural consequences to the type of RP they play too personally. If the GMs want there to be more consequences to "bad" RP, then that's them doing it to everyone that is "bad," not just a small group of them. I seriously doubt any GM hates the shadier guilds so much that they want to punish them mechanically. After all, if they truly hated them, we wouldn't have them, and CLOK would be all sunshine and talking flowers.

Honestly, I think this is the root to the problem that spurred this thread to begin with. As others have said, this is just a game. Sure, we're all human, and we all have opinions about each other, but we're also all experienced RP'rs for the most part. The GMs take accusations of people using OOC knowledge IC seriously, as well as accusations of harassment, so these things are doubtlessly closely monitored, as Jirato showed by stating how much time and effort he has put into just this one situation. My own personal experiences have shown that everyone I interact with on CLOK keeps IC and OOC seperate from each other.

I can kinda understand where Vaylon is coming from. I've very recently had things happen to my character that made me feel targetted OOC, and definitely IC. It was hard not to [witch] and complain about it. But, I didn't, I kept on going with the RP, because that's what it was, RP. I wasn't being singled out or targetted (as far as I know or can prove) by anyone, I was simply suffering from this same type of RP, where rumors start and spread about your character. I can tell you now, those rumors certainly weren't true, but often times rumors never are. Regardless, we love to eat and spread gossip, and sime people love to start it for the most absurd or petty of reasons, or no reason at all. Rumors, even those started due to OOC conflict, are therefore not violating any rules, as long as the intent of those rumors is not to drive the person away, amd they do not include IC secrets which your character would not know about.

I find personally that the best course of action is to assume that everything everyone does is done in-character with no OOC influences. If one person seems to be starting an awful lot of rumors about you, or they are taking an awful lot of actions against you all the time, or they have alts that suddenly start to hate you for no apparent reason, those are things that should be cause for concern, and probably attention and concerns brought to the GMs. But as far as I can tell, this whole incident involves a single case of one given set of rumors, which is hardly enough to say that anyone is targetting anyone else.

I realize that sometimes actions against our characters can feel like personal assaults against us ourselves, but honestly, I've never seen a case where this has actually been true. Our characters, no matter how different or alike they are to us IRL are still extentions of ourselves, and I personally tend to get fairly wrapped up in Fayne's mindset when playing as long as I'm staying off of OOC communications. It allows me to play her better than I ever could if I remained entirely seperate from her. However, that being said, she is still a fictional character that does not exist and lives in a world that is entirely seperate from my own. If one of Liani's (sorry Liani) alts walked up to Fayne and stabbed her to death in the middle of the road every time she saw her, I wouldn't run off to Skype or whatever and [witch] her out. I wouldn't even demand an explanation. In fact, I wouldn't even take it OOC at all. I'd assume there must be some IC reason for her to do that, and I would take steps to figure what that was and fix it if possible. The only time I would take it OOC is if suddenly the alts that Fayne is friends with also started to stab her randomly every time they met, and even then I'd reach to her directly before involving anyone else.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: for those of you who think someone might be carrying an OOC grudge IC, or are otherwise having their RP influenced by OOC factors, first take a step back and see if maybe you might be the one taking IC actions OOC. It can be an easy thing to do. Just remember, even if someone's character is making personal attacks against your character, it doesn't always mean that player is making attacks against you.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Alexander » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:00 pm

I am combining my thoughts from another thread into this one, to try and preserve the integrity of the other thread. This post is quite lengthy, in true Viali fashion, and no offense will be taken if you choose to skip it.

Characters treating other characters fairly or not is, I think, not an issue worthy of significant debate. Our characters are often in fact designed to be flawed, so we can play them in certain ways. Alexander judges the way people act from a different perspective than I would as a player. He will come to conclusions that I as a player would consider unfair. He will act in ways I as a player believe are foolish. I do not believe this means I am playing the game wrong, or wronging the players of the characters Alexander misjudges or misunderstands. Never mind that we, as players, are perfectly capable of truly misjudging, overreacting, and misinterpreting.

Please also consider that characters can act the way they do for reasons you simply do not know. None of us know all of what happens to other characters, what they hear, what they discuss with others, what they believe, what they conjecture. I should not immediately demand that another player explain their character's actions and accuse them of being in the wrong simply because I do not know their motivations for holding unfavorable opinions about Alexander. It does tend to happen, and how my character handles and responds to these situations is part of the game. It is part of playing a role. We are not the unblemished heroes of CLOK, always in the right. Our characters are flawed and make mistakes; we as players are flawed and make mistakes.
Vaylon wrote:Out-of-character, I find the accusations fairly amusing since I know that I haven't played Vaylon in that manner
Do keep in mind that is entirely possible to attempt to play your character in one manner, and to have others interpret this in a way you did not intend. This happens to me quite frequently with Alexander. I believe this is simply due to people having different experiences and perspectives, and is not necessarily a result of intentional malicious misinterpretation and slander. This is not to say that people will not exaggerate and spread rumors, as is quite common of people who dislike another. I see no reason to label these sorts of actions as out-of-character or unfair. We often see ourselves quite differently than others see us.
Vaylon wrote:Let's be reasonable: Vaylon is a thief. He's not a very good one, honestly, so I'm sure plenty of people have spotted him sneaking around. Is it honestly inconceivable to you that the actual reason Vaylon is sneaking around is because he's looking for things to steal, and people simply assume he's being a stalker or call him one because it sounds plausible? Or maybe there's some other reason they hate him, so they make up things about him?
This seems to me to be further evidence of in-character sources for these allegedly OOC rumors. If Vaylon is a thief and, as you admit, has been caught sneaking about and such, this seems like a very likely and legitimate source for the rumors. Those that have been affected negatively by Vaylon, for whatever reason, will likely latch onto these rumors and put effort into encouraging their circulation further. This is in no way an unbelievable situation, nor is it difficult to accept as in-character. Your enemies finding and using opportunities to further publicly demonize you is an entirely believable in-character action.
Vaylon wrote:I can think of at least one player who is insanely jealous of Vaylon out-of-character and who has made it his mission to ruin the game for me in any way he can.
My goodness. After some consideration, I will simply leave my comment at that.
Vaylon wrote:It is not a hypothetical but a fact that some or most of the in-character rumor about Vaylon was started because someone (or perhaps many someones) out-of-character dislikes me, the player, and my character. ... I find it plausible that you, too, contribute to the spread of these rumors in-character for out-of-character dislike (which you admit that you have).
You yourself provided believable in-character sources and reasons for people to spread unfavorable rumors about your character. I saw no such admission from Merin. His character dislikes yours for in-character reasons, and he as a player dislikes Vaylon as well. It is entirely possible to dislike both a character and their player, and still have one's own character act against that character for legitimate IC reasons. Disliking a character's player does not invalidate or make unfair your own character's actions against that character based on IC reasons.

My character has had a single interaction with Vaylon that I can clearly recall. His initial impressions were not overly favorable, due to his perceptions of Vaylon's attitude, perceived flawed logic, and treatment of one of my character's peers. While Alexander has not heard any of these nasty rumors about Vaylon yet, he would be more likely to give these rumors consideration due to this initial unfavorable impression. I hope this serves as an example of how one character can dislike another and hear and believe rumors for purely in-character reasons, with no OOC dislike of the player involved.

I assure you, I understand the frustrations of a character being misinterpreted unfavorably and having rumors spread about them that reinforce these misinterpretations. It has happened to Alexander, as well as other characters of mine. I imagine it has happened to a very many characters, in fact. I do not think we should make the leap to the conclusion that there are bands of players out to ruin the game for others for OOC reasons. If these bands of nasty players exist, I am sure staff will monitor and handle the problem. They are at least as invested in keeping players in CLOK as we are. We should also accept that sometimes, other characters will dislike ours and come to or believe misguided conclusions about them.

You seem to be struggling with the idea that a number of characters would take issue with yours. The way others have described your character, as well as the way you yourself have described him, based on his guild membership, and by the nature of social interactions and how rumors can propagate, I can certainly see how your character could potentially generate a significant circulation of unfavorable rumors. This is not to say that I think your character is bad, or deserving of this. Rumors and negative reputations often come upon those who do not deserve them. Your reactions and comments here on the BBS do lead me to wonder whether you are perhaps putting too much stock into this idea that there is a coalition of players on a crusade against you, trying to force you to quit the game, instead of accepting the fact that several characters may dislike yours for legitimate, in-character reasons.

These are just my own thoughts and conjectures, of course, as I am not involved in the situation and there may well be overwhelming evidence that you are indeed suffering from OOC attacks with no IC foundation. I trust you have sent all relevant information to the staff, whom I am sure will address the issue if there is due evidence that this is in fact an OOC issue and violation of Policy 3. On that note, I do not believe disliking and banding against a character for IC reasons is a violation of Policy 3. It would be impossible to have such a policy with the varying factions and character alignments that we do in CLOK.
Jilliana wrote:• Player - How do you as a player suggest this problem should be resolved with your fellow players not being able to separate and not having the appropriate in character proof that your own character is acting a certain way? This is whether or not you believe it exists or not.
I would report concerns to staff and deal with in-character happenings as normal. We are strong, and those whom resort to childish antics to ruin another's experience for their own petty satisfaction are weak. Do not allow them a victory over you by providing them the reaction they desire.
Jilliana wrote:• Player - What kind of environment would you like to be a part of? Are you okay with CLOK being a place where the mostly good characters are being supported, thus throwing off the balance of an already small game?
I agree with Merin's assessment. The majority of CLOK's characters appear to be more near to neutral, if we are going to make statements based on alignments. The evil characters will naturally have more enemies, as their evil actions often negatively impact not only the good, but also the neutral, and oftentimes even their fellow evil peers. Evil is often selfish and will jealously guard power and influence; that is not exactly conducive to a friendly group environment. Evil also often has little regard for rules or ethics, which will make them more prone to butt heads with various authorities and suffer penalties. Those who choose to play an evil chararcter in any environment, not just CLOK, should be prepared to have their evil character treated as just that: evil. It is a self-imposed challenge, and one that can be quite enjoyable and rewarding, though it requires the right mindset and the acceptance that one will often have the short end of the stick. There is perhaps nothing as fun as playing the role of the villain that everyone loves to hate.
Jilliana wrote:• Player - How would you feel about your fellow players getting away with behaving a certain way to the extent to where you might feel that a certain line of roleplay is going to be hindered just because you aren't a part of a certain social standard established by people that can't separate?
Like Merin, I would not allow other players to hinder my own character idea and how I play him. Again, if I believed there was an OOC issue, I would report concerns to staff. I do not feel I completely understand this question, particularly about a line of roleplay being hindered due to not being part of an undesirable social standard.
Jilliana wrote:• Player - How do you feel about making CLOK a place that although you aren't expected to be friendly with everyone, it becomes an environment where all kinds of healthy conflict is encouraged?
I find myself generally enjoying the conflict in CLOK. I attribute this partially to frequently ignoring the Chat channel, petty conflicts, and those that take the conflicts personally or complain about balancing and fairness issues. Conflict is never evenly balanced. When you must fight harder, the victories are made all the sweeter.
Jilliana wrote:• Player - Do you feel that you are justified in behaving without sufficient in character proof when you treat a character a certain way or do you follow a certain line of ethics that allow you to give the proof for acting a certain way should someone ask you about it?
I strive to only play my character in-character. I will not deny my personal feelings occasionally influence my actions, but I do my best to avoid that. I do allow occasional assumptions due to not being able to be logged in 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and based on the concept of NPCs being present without being present as actual characters in the room.

As for myself, I have had some minor suspicions of characters taking IC action based on OOC feelings or knowledge on rare occasion. I have never observed it to be a large problem, and if I am simply unaware of a more widespread issue at hand, I hope and trust it will be resolved by action on part of both staff and playerbase.
Jilliana wrote:However, I encourage a lot of you to consider asking a lot of the players that were at one point long-time, dedicated players and ask them why they stopped coming around.
In my case, the answer is simply that life happened. I am trying to make a comeback, because I miss CLOK.
Vidor wrote:Also keep in mind that spreading gossip and rumors and slander about suspected favoritism with other players is just like spreading a sickly poison to the game community.
I simply thought this was worth repeating.
Vidor wrote:If, as Jaster says, our goal is to make the game better, then this airing of dirty laundry does nothing more than put us at one anothers' throats.
I do worry about this as well. We've already seen one player state that the concerns brought up in this thread have caused her to consider not playing anymore and, as far as I could tell, she was not involved in or even aware of these suspected issues until reading about them here. Encouraging one another to speak openly to one another like adults is certainly good, as is bringing awareness to a potential issue. Exclaiming that the sky is falling and having everyone chime in, however, may start a panic and be detrimental to the community. My impression is that there are merely a few who have these specific suspicions and concerns, but as the thread progresses, things are beginning to be made out now that the community both on the GM side and the player side is crumbling, and spreading this impression is unhealthy for our community.
(Alexander clenches a fist momentarily, then stops and calms himself with visible effort.)
[FROM Eira (OOC)]: LET IT OUT, MAN!

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:27 pm

Once again, thank you to everyone who has participated in this open forum so far.

I want to encourage further discussion by highlighting and addressing (with my own thoughts, of course) a few of the concerns I've seen stated here.

Firstly, some people have stated that they are concerned that a player contacting another player OOCly to discuss both of their characters' IC interactions and the validity or reasoning of those actions is in itself inappropriate. I'm not sure of the reasoning behind a stance such as that. To me, if somebody has a concern about another player character's involvement with their own character then it is most appropriate to first try discussing it with that character's player before seeking GM involvement. To discourage such a thing is, I feel, against the spirit of an open community and could encourage those who are already timid or afraid to speak up to stay silent (which is the opposite of what I've hoped to accomplish with this forum). Oftentimes, discussing it one on one can help both players understand the situation more completely and react more appropriately, or can even help them discover bugs in the game systems involved that have previously gone unnoticed (this is one of our responsibilities as players of a game in a testing phase, as CLOK is). It can also dispel any unnecessary and unwarranted OOC disputes before they can spiral out of control.

I can understand if anyone disagrees, particularly if their disagreement is built on the belief that regulation and investigation of player/character disputes or possible bugs in the game systems should be solely the responsibility of the GMs. However, I would argue that a playerbase that is proactive in these regards is a great tool that GMs can utilize to ease the burden of their own workloads, and that it is a player's responsibility to evaluate their own character's interactions with other player characters and game systems and address their concerns proactively in a reasonable, respectful, and investigative manner. If we were all to work together in such a way on a frequent basis, I have no doubt that it would be beneficial to the game as a whole.

That leads me to this:
Alexander wrote:
Vidor wrote: If, as Jaster says, our goal is to make the game better, then this airing of dirty laundry does nothing more than put us at one anothers' throats.
I do worry about this as well. We've already seen one player state that the concerns brought up in this thread have caused her to consider not playing anymore and, as far as I could tell, she was not involved in or even aware of these suspected issues until reading about them here. Encouraging one another to speak openly to one another like adults is certainly good, as is bringing awareness to a potential issue. Exclaiming that the sky is falling and having everyone chime in, however, may start a panic and be detrimental to the community. My impression is that there are merely a few who have these specific suspicions and concerns, but as the thread progresses, things are beginning to be made out now that the community both on the GM side and the player side is crumbling, and spreading this impression is unhealthy for our community.
While I can see why both of you are concerned, and appreciate your participation, I feel that comparing the airing of dirty laundry (as it was stated) to the spreading of poison is unfair. It would be irresponsible for anybody to bury or repress their own (or other player's) concerns on the basis that it could harm the community/game when the very things they are concerned about, especially if left unresolved, can do such harm by themselves. The question of whether or not the things that they are concerned about actually exist is ultimately irrelevant when first stating the concerns, as the existence of the concerns themselves can be harmful and can be easily dispelled when the concerns are stated and addressed with due regard.

I would liken this to a surgeon refusing to perform a surgery on a dying gunshot victim on the basis that they run the risk of dying during the procedure. The gunshot victim dying during surgery wouldn't make him any more dead than allowing him to die, would it? No, but doing the surgery certainly can help resolve the problem: The gunshot itself. Airing dirty laundry wouldn't make the laundry stink any more than it already does, would it? No, but it can certainly help to air it out and resolve the problem: The dirty laundry itself.

I would like to reassure everyone that my only intention with opening this forum has been to encourage equal contribution and reasonable and civil discussion of community concerns.

Once again, thank you to everyone who has been participating. Your thoughts and concerns are very much appreciated. Let's continue to work together for the betterment of our community!

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by vidor » Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:48 pm

Jaster. I'll put it more simply. Talking about problems is fine; talking about them here does no good what so ever. Nice analogy, but you didn't change my mind. Using vague statements of rong doing puts ghosts in the water. Whether they're true or not (inclined to think not) is irrelevant; now people are looking for them, and they'll see them, because that's how humans work. If people have concerns, they should (and are instructed) to go to the GMs for it; that's why they're here. If they can't, or won't, then that's their problem for them to handle independently. But statements like "people have vendetta's against me" or "organized groups are intentionally trying to remove me from the game," without any anecdotal or other evidence, come across like screaming into the night. Can we be above that? Channels are there. Use them.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:59 pm

Thank you for your dignified contribution, Vidor.

Yes, I agree that the truthfulness and validity of player concerns is ultimately irrelevant. However, they can be easily dispelled, whether warranted or not, by being addressed with due regard. This is why I am encouraging the participation of the community to help bring these concerns to a resolution.

Certainly, channels are here, and the BBS is one of them. It is open to everyone equally to use as they please, which is why I have been encouraging everybody to use it now.

I thank you for your participation in clearing up these ghosts in the water through open discussion, and I encourage everyone else to participate equally with as much civility as you yourself have shown.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by vidor » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:15 pm

I'm really curious re: your intended goal. Let's use Vaylon, since he's the example that commonly comes up. Do you expect anyone who has acted rudely against him ic to explain now ooc (and ic)
why they did it? That call for openness is voluntary, and the position that the choice is between disclosure or ooc-motivated action is a position I am uncomfortable with.
Jirato has mentioned that he (and presumably other staff) are looking into allogations. If they are being worked, I still fail to see the benefit to a forum like this, other than subjecting all ic disagreement to an uninformed peoples' court.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:17 pm

Indeed, any and all participation in the BBS is optional, including this forum. Nobody is demanding that you or anyone else take part in any open discussion, but everybody is welcome to contribute equally as they see fit for the betterment of the community. That is the benefit to free speech and open discussion.

For clarity, I will state again my hopes for this open forum: To generate and support open, fair, and reasonable discussion of community concerns on a completely voluntary basis for the betterment of the game and community we all love.

As always, thank you for your contribution Vidor. I can speak only for myself in saying that it is very much appreciated. I encourage everyone to take part in this discussion, just as you have decided to, but I certainly am not forcing them to do so. If anybody has any specific comments or concerns that they feel uncomfortable discussing in a public forum, I encourage them to find a party they are comfortable sharing those concerns with and contacting them privately. GMs are always a great choice, but I too am willing to accept PMs from anybody for any private discussions about my own statements or concerns, or their concerns.

Thank you, and keep up the good discussion!

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Sneaky » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:04 pm

The day that I'm bombarded with tells from every player asking me why my character did something the way he did is the day I quit. I can't deal with it from one player let alone multiple people. It's already lead me to ignore that person on all ooc communications. I fail to see how asking for reasons ooc solves anything. If you want to know why someone did something try and figure out IC. Obviously it won't be easy so try and speak to other people who might understand. Nobody can help you if the reasons IC don't make sense to you when they're reasonable to everybody else.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:14 pm

Certainly, using tells to ask other players for justification of every single IC action as they happen in real time would be unrealistic and unreasonable. I don't believe anybody has proposed such a thing. However, doing so when there is a clear discrepancy or misunderstanding would be an understandable and reasonable approach, and how the other player responds is wholly up to them. If receiving too many tells or unwanted tells is an issue, the suggested route of ignoring someone or toggling tells off is an acceptable and reasonable action for anybody to take in such a situation.

Thank you for your contributions to this discussion, Sneaky!

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by vidor » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:13 am

Jaster... part of rp, part of LIFE is misunderstanding. We're not going to know why characters do what they're going to do. And, if we did, it wouldn't be fun. If small subsets of the population go around saying that "oh I don't know why you did this, so it's ooc-fueled," then that's their problem. If members of the population can't trust that others are keeping ic and ooc separate, that's their problem. And if people are goin gto make it out to seem like there's some secret ring of people who are ooc and ic trying to get people removed from the game, when there is no evidence... particularly when they are unwilling or unable to go to the GMs about it (gms who have looked into it and addressed it), then I have no interest in trying to make it better. I have no reason to believe this is more than peoples' ic actions catching up to them, and them not liking it And to that, I offer twelve riln and a nudge to go call someone who cares..

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:03 am

Thank you for your generous participation, Vidor.

Certainly, you can have your own opinions and concerns about what happens in the community, just as anyone else. I know it is sometimes difficult to discuss them for some, but your willingness to participate is encouraging to them, I'm sure.

Nobody is demanding to know why characters act as they do. However, I am encouraging everyone to express any concerns or problems they may have , in a well formulated and reasonable way, as they relate to the game and the community. This is to promote healthy discussion and resolution of those issues, however real or imagined, and however important or unimportant anyone else may believe them to be. Everyone can choose their own level of involvment, even if that is none at all.

Thank you for your helpful support, Vidor.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by preiman » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:39 am

What I feel is being ignored, though some are saying it is that ideas like this creat a no win situation. I can voluntarily give up IC information I may not want to, or stay silent and for all practical effect admit guilt.
I and I am sure others would resent such a situation. I do have in character reasons for everything my characters do, but have no intension to give them to anyone but a GN.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by preiman » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:52 am

I will add that I now regret being so open with who my alts are. I did so because I hoped the openness would help prevent accusations of OOC actions considering I play a wide assortment ranging from extreme good to extreme evil and most of the space between. I'll no longer be doing that, as it seems as soon as two of my characters dislike the same person accusations go out anyway.
"I don't think we're ever going to find out what is going on with these canim, where are they coming from?!"
Kent arrives from the southeast.
Kent hugs you.
say um
You say, "Um."
a Mistral Lake sentry arrives from the east, armor clanking.
Kent heads north.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Sneaky » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:36 am

I present this example for thought
So for this example we’ll use three people. Person’s 1 through 3. So 1 knows 2, 2 doesn’t much care for 1 because they act a certain way their character doesn’t like. Person 1 also has another friend named person 3. Person 3’s character also considers person 1’s a friend and enjoys their company. Person 2 decides they want to make another character and does so. They find that their new character also doesn’t particularly like person 1 due to rumors that cast them in a bad light. Person 3 decides they want to make another alt as well, and finds that their new character also likes person 1 because they have some of the same interests. Person 1 feels that person’s 2’s new character doesn’t like them due to ooc reasoning and thinks it’s wrong and should be punished, but they don’t feel that person’s 3’s new character’s reasoning for befriending themselves is questionable.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:42 am

I agree, persons' emotions, feelings, and perceptions can be very fickle. Oftentimes, we allow them to affect our own actions (and the actions of our characters) without realizing it.

That said, anybody's participation or lack thereof in this open forum should not be misconstrued as an admission of guilt or involvement in any kind of nefarious misdeeds. We all have strong feelings about many things in our community. That is a reflection of our dedication to preserving it. As such, any participation here is also a reflection of that dedication, but not a requirement for it.

Nobody is demanding that anybody else give up IC information, but I am encouraging everyone to be proactive in approaching their discussions in a respectful, well-thought, and reasonable manner. The topics of discussion are completely up to whoever is presenting their concerns, and the extent of participation by others in that discussion and how or why they participate is for them to decide. I only ask for civility from all participants, no matter the extent of their participation.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed thus far, and may we all continue to work together and be a positive force.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Fayne » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:56 am

Personally, If anyone considers anything my character(s) does to be influenced by OOC feelings, opinions, or thoughts, my only question would be why they felt that was the case. I mostly keep to myself, and only talk to a small number of people OOCly, and I've never had an OOC dispute with anyone. I have had people try to tell me I should stop doing something on my character, but frankly, Fayne is my character to play however I wish, and as such I will not change the way I play her simply because someone who has no GM authority demands that I do so. I've also been asked why she is or has done something before, and I'm more than happy to explain why, because I love discussing my character and her thought processes. If someone feels I am acting a certain way fo to OOC influences, I'd be curious to know what it is that makes them feel that way, that way I could explain just what Fayne's motivations were.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:50 pm

Thanks for your contribution, Fayne!

Your explanations point out an important thing for everyone to remember: Your character is yours to play. This means you are ultimately responsible for how you play them, and nobody else should be able to do or say anything to change how you do so. I am a strong proponent of playing a character how you see fit, regardless of what others are saying.

I've encouraged players in the past who have approached me with concerns about the things other people are telling them to do with their characters by telling them this exact thing: Stay true to YOUR character as YOU see them. Nobody knows your character or their motivations as well as you do.

Certainly, it is up to other players to accept (or not accept) the way you play your character, and though sometimes they have trouble doing this (and ask questions about why you're doing the things you are with your character) they still do not make the decision on how your character should be played.

Also, you the player are ultimately in control of how much insight you give into your character's actions or motivations. Certainly, everybody should determine a balance for themselves that is enjoyable for them as a player.

Great concept, and a great contribution by Fayne! My thanks for your participation.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Lavi » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:05 am

Hello everyone,

As some of you know I have left clok for a while due to some personal reasons of my own, but during that time of my absence. I had actually come onto a rumor that was said in a public forum. I have every reason to believe that it is indeed true because the people in question who have told me this was going on have no reason to lie or say something untrue about things. I have been told that I force RP on people, I have been told that I have made people uncomfortable by taking problems ooc. I have been linked to my characters actions from an ooc stand point, so much so, that I refuse to play a character that I loved so much because I can't go a week without hearing about someone calling me a jackass for having a jackass character. I find myself being targeted in small ways all the time, and while I love clok, I have had to leave on the fact that the ooc community is not healthy, I've tried to come back and I've been asked to bring my character who I loved so much back. But it has come to a point that I can't trust players to let me play my character as he is intended because of rumors that are based on someone's dislike of me. To the rumor that I force RP on people, I have never done this, mainly because I have higher standards for myself on what is acceptable. I have played a variety of muds, most of them with strict rules on roleplay, and I have never gone as far as making someone uncomfortable. IN fact I warn people ooc most times that I play characters to that standard because frankly I don't do well with ooc drama.

This seems to come up a lot, this issue of people making things difficult out of character. It really comes down to the players I believe. There are so many places with large populations of players that don't have this problem to such and extent. I wish we could manage to bring that to clok. Because a game that I did most of my RP on for close to two years, I now can't log into twithout having to turn off chat, question, and even at times tells because someone is going to bother me ooc.

If you don't like me ooc, I honestly have no idea why, because I go out of my way to not be combative other than to ask thatyou respect me as a person. I think everyone has a right to create a story for themselves, but I think that people forget that at times.
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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Jaster » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:34 pm

Thank you, Lavi. I know it can sometimes be difficult to openly discuss your own experiences with and insights into community issues, so know that I appreciate your post.

I feel that your personal story is a testament to the harm that can be caused by players not discussing their concerns with each other as they arise. Certainly, some of the distress you have had to endure might well have been circumvented had those other players who had concerns with your character or you "forcing RP", no matter the relevance or applicability of their concerns, discussed it with you immediately. Each of you could have collaborated to disperse those concerns in a way that would have been beneficial to everyone, without you having to feel as though you've been treated unfairly.

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Re: Wars and rumors of wars (OPEN FORUM!)

Post by Lavi » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:55 pm

As I said I'm trying to get back into Clok, slowly, but I've just recognized that the ooc community isn't worth paying attention to, which is sad because there's a lot of people I've met ooc on Clok who are great, I just hate having to deal with everything else to have that sort of interaction
[ESP-GRAY - Shadowy-Gray]: No no (player) , you were right, it's wonderful. I think I'll send in my application today. I can't wait to partake in the parties there. I just have one question, will I need to kidnap my own child, or will there be some there for those who are un able to.

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