Honest questions

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Honest questions

Postby Enepttastic » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:04 am

And I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers here but...Are members of the Tse Gaiyan(at least those that can commune with Gaea) supposed to be acting like fanatical thugs?

While this I'm going to admit that this isn't something I've seen countless times, there does seem to be a conflict between what is stated on the wiki and how some have presented themselves in character.

Here's the deal: First time, as a player, I saw anything dealing with a member of the Udemi dealing with a character who didn't understand anything about the Gaea, why cutting trees/hunting was bad, etc. it got to the point that not only did non-members do a better job of explaining the issue but one even took it upon his/herself(don't remember) to pre-emptively warn the Udemi that the character was being defended. While I don't believe Udemi in question had any intent to harm the character who was logging at the time, their side of it came across more as a, "Do as I say because...reasons I can't even begin to explain so do as I say."

Now, I've had a personal experience in a very similar situation, except at that time it seemed to get rather close to Atali learning she was an undying. Now, a bit of the irritation made sense due to RP reasons(Atali's a bit...abrasive...), but as a player I left with the feeling that she was just ambushed by a couple of thugs who are going around saying, "Do what we say or we'll kill you/make you pay."

Both of these times seemed to be a disconnect from what the Tse Gaiyan is supposed to do per the wiki, specifically the, parts about, "Find, fight, and eradicate the resen infestation on Arad; protect and defend choice while enforcing responsibility in all its forms; mediate a balance between humankind's and the gaea's needs and wants"(that needs a period at the end of it on the wiki FYI) and "Although their focus is on personal choices and sacrifice and not forcing others to do the same..."

Now, like I said, I know my experiences as a player here are minimal but the disconnect still stands, should those trained in Druidry really seem so militant in defending Gaea given the lore? If not, what's causing this? Is it an issue with the players not understanding their character's purpose as a member of the Tse Gaiyan? Are Gaea mechanics too punishing and thus need a rework as mentioned in the "Major Changes" thread? Or is the lore on the wiki out of date? Am I misunderstanding things/or not seeing enough of how the Tse Gaiyan act?

Soooo, thoughts?

Edit: Note, added final question and wanted to make something clear: I'm in no way claiming the players were not RPing correctly. Hell, I think everyone I've run dealt with IC has done superb RPing. I'm just honestly confused.
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Re: Honest questions

Postby Vinz » Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:39 am

The Tse Gaiyan do not have a unified approached to someone disturbing the Gaea. Its up to each of its members to decide how to approach the subject. Some are harsh some are overly kind. Universally, it is asked that the Udemi educate but not all druids are Udemi. There are rumors of others who stalk the land that will shoot fire and ask questions later about protecting the Gaea.

Finally, being abrasive will usually have the result of others being abrasive to you. The golden rule and all of that. This is the Lost Lands, no one has to be nice because they live in a place where damn near EVERYTHING is trying to kill, maim and eat them. Given its nice to know that some kindness is left in the world. The more responsible and well spoken Udemi will generally ask if you understand what your doing to the Gaea and if you know what the Gaea is. Though remember there are also characters who are specifically trying to do some of these things to hurt them as a whole as well. So you never know who your dealing with. We had a scene go down a few weeks ago when a druid asked someone to stop they tried to bury a logging axe in their skull. Being Tse Gaiyan is tough.
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Re: Honest questions

Postby Tangela » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:01 am

Hi,

I saw that incident as it was going down. Unfortunately, I was talking with a new druid at the time, and did not have time to explain the gaea IC. If we ever get the chance IC, I'd love the chance to at least try to help change your ideas of druids being harsh enforcers. I'm sorry you had such an experience.

However, I do want to say OOC that it was awesome to see someone question the way your character did. It really makes sense that someone would doubt the Gaea and seek more understanding about why and how they were doing harm by just cutting trees. I can't say that I've seen that before. Usually people either just stop right away or act overly agressive as Vinz mentioned. Someone who is just genuinely curious is fun to see.
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Re: Honest questions

Postby Kunren » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:06 am

Personally, I like the "you hurt trees I hurt you worse" way. Probably means I'm a violent person heh. That's how I would probably play a tse gaiyan character if I had one.
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Re: Honest questions

Postby Lavi » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:40 pm

I can think of a few incidents you are speaking of, and while the characters may be coming off like huge jerks, it does vary from player to player. There are even some non druids who get really prickly when people do too much logging and things.
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Re: Honest questions

Postby baerden » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:08 pm

There are people in the Tse Gaiyan that still honor the code of honor as you describe in your post and based on the wiki entry. There is no unified approach, and there are characters who are vehemently opposed to the fanatical thug approach. Don't judge us all based on actions of a few.

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Re: Honest questions

Postby jilliana » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:16 pm

I honestly think that there needs to be a more unified approach for the reason Baerden mentioned.

My general approach is to shut up or suck it up and explain politely. There is a nice way to explain IC things and consequences instead of taking a vigilante approach to something people do innocently.
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Re: Honest questions

Postby Barius » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:27 pm

Speaking from having been on both sides of this kind of scenario, I can say that I wouldn't judge on another's choice to roleplay these scenes in whatever way they choose for their character. Not everyone is nice, not everyone is violent.

I read the wiki on Tse Gaiyan and the Udemi, and I was unsure if I missed something. Does it state somewhere all must have a unified approach to how they deal with people, or that all must be kind and compassionate toward others? I genuinely think I must've missed something, if people are quoting from it and I can't see it.

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Re: Honest questions

Postby Enepttastic » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:28 am

Before I begin, I've chatted with Vinz a bit via PMs about this issue since originally posting but after thinking it over for a bit, I've realized I need to say something else:

There's no unified approach...

What exactly does that mean to everyone? Me, I see this meaning, "While we don't have any clear-cut rules on how our members are to do so, we expect you to work toward our goals." Or, in other words, "As long as you do your job, we don't care how you do it." I'd think that's something I can safely assume we'd be in agreement on.

So, we have an organization that isn't particular how their goals are achieved as long as they are. Well, let's take a look and see what the Tse Gaiyan's goals are:

[quote=The wiki]Find, fight, and eradicate the resen infestation on Arad; protect and defend choice while enforcing responsibility in all its forms; mediate a balance between humankind's and the gaea's needs and wants.[/quote]

Ahh, three of em:
  • Eradicate the Resen(Gods I keep wanting to type "Resin"). We can remove Find/Fight because honestly, those are assumed steps when you want to eradicate something.
  • Protect/Defend choice while enforcing responsibility.
  • Mediate a balance between humanity and the gaea.

So, we have the listed goals and the Tse Gaiyan, as an organization, lacks a "unified approach" as to how those goals are achieved. Peachy.

Eradication: Seems to be a rather straightfoward goal. The complete removal of the resen. Despite a lack of "unified approach" it stands to reason that the Tse Gaiyan would be vehemently opposed to a treaty with the infested if such a thing were even possible.

Protect/Defend Choice while enforcing responsibility: I'll admit, this is a fun grey area for the organization. Not only due to it meaning that there's the chance that members may find themselves on opposite sides in a conflict but how exactly does one defend choice and then enforce responsibility for that choice? I could easily see some interesting RP coming into play due to how various members work toward this goal. It reminds me of a situation in the Codex Alera series. Essentially there's a bit of a disagreement between two equally stationed members of a society. It gets brought up that one side is adhering to the "spirit of the law" while the other is adhering merely to the "letter of the law." Fun times.

Mediate between the gaea and humanity: And we're back on topic. The Tse Gaiyan has no "unified approach" to how this is done, as long as the goal is worked toward. We still in agreement here? Now, read the various definitions of "mediate" and give me a damned good reason why the Tse Gaiyan shouldn't be looking to expel their members who think threatening and/or killing is a valid method of doing that.
Mediation is not championing a cause. Mediation is not walking around going, "Do what I tell you to do or you'll be sorry." Mediation is about being an impartial third party who assists two conflicting parties in reaching a compromise.

Barius wrote:Speaking from having been on both sides of this kind of scenario, I can say that I wouldn't judge on another's choice to roleplay these scenes in whatever way they choose for their character. Not everyone is nice, not everyone is violent.

Quite true. I honestly don't have a problem with the idea of a member being overly rash in their attempts to protect Gaea. However, that should be causing those members to face more consequences not only from the public but from the organization as well. I told Vinz this over PM but between the rumors of druids with the, "shoot first, ask questions later policy," and how some Tse Gaiyans act, I'm not surprised at all that there's been cases of loggers attacking druids on sight.

That said, I'm going to go full circle here and bring up what I asked at the end of my OP, what needs to be done to fix this? Does the Tse Gaiyan information on the wiki need to be re-written to more adequately explain their stance? Do the gaea mechanics need to be changed? Does the Tse Gaiyan need to actually teach their members better?

I'll offer up my suggestion on the matter:
1. Reduce the penalties overlogging/hunting has on those with druidic capabilities. This allows the Tse Gaiyan to actually be a bit more impartial, and thus more capable of mediating effectively.
2. Ways for non-druids to be able to tell if an area may be overlogged/hunted. (ex. You survey and notice evidence of recent logging...)
3. More obvious mechanics in play for the non-druids to deal with when overlogging/hunting is being done. (ex. Diversity, both in type of creatures jumping out of tress and their difficulty as well, carnivorous critters roaming/attacking travelers due lack of food, etc)
4. Tse Gaiyan tasks/mechanics to help heal the gaea in areas where needed. This in and of itself could bring about some interesting rp opportunities for both the Tse Gaiyan as well as those out hunting/logging.
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Re: Honest questions

Postby Rias » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:40 am

1. Reduce the penalties overlogging/hunting has on those with druidic capabilities. This allows the Tse Gaiyan to actually be a bit more impartial, and thus more capable of mediating effectively.
The druids feel a sense of distress. That's it. They're made vaguely aware that something is up, and how they act on that (if at all) is entirely up to them.

2. Ways for non-druids to be able to tell if an area may be overlogged/hunted. (ex. You survey and notice evidence of recent logging...)
This is to-doed. It was worked on at some point but got abandoned.

3. More obvious mechanics in play for the non-druids to deal with when overlogging/hunting is being done. (ex. Diversity, both in type of creatures jumping out of tress and their difficulty as well, carnivorous critters roaming/attacking travelers due lack of food, etc)
This will be fun to work on, but will come after some adjustments to the causes first. Right now it's still a little too random and all-or-nothing; we'd like to give people a chance to wise up and use preventative measures/exercise responsibility to avoid issues (although not 100% - that'd be boring!).

4. Tse Gaiyan tasks/mechanics to help heal the gaea in areas where needed. This in and of itself could bring about some interesting rp opportunities for both the Tse Gaiyan as well as those out hunting/logging.
There's the cultivation task, which encourages and speeds growth in an area.
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