Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering reform

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Rias
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Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering reform

Post by Rias » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:09 am

Initiations to the Monastic Order and Knights Templar are suspended until further notice. There have been far too many initiates who made it clear they only joined up for the anticipated power or abilities, without any desire to actually act in a way that would foster their Inner Light, and have ended up losing their abilities.

The Monastic Order and Knights Templar are re-thinking how they'll consider new initiates from and exercise discipline over existing members amongst the odd, oft-undisciplined inhabitants of the Lost Lands. Existing members of both organizations can expect stricter guidelines and codes of conduct in the near future.

In the meantime, those who aspire to become involved in either organization might want to go out of their way to show they're a good fit by their actions, rather than words alone. It seems many are willing to gloss over or fib through the initiation interviews in hopes of attaining thaumaturgic training.
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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Skah » Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:05 pm

I can sympathise with this. I've seen (hell, frankly I've also played) some pretty one dimensional Templar and Monk hopefuls. They even introduce themselves as such. It seems to me that the Church, like real ones, should be more of a calling than a profession. Perhaps even something that happens later in a character's life or even (don't know game policy on this) after they've left another guild.

There should be some major IC event, some epiphany, that makes them seek the light, so to speak, and strict rules surrounding their conduct.

Thaumaturgy should also be special and precious, and one way to make sure it's viewed as such is to limit how many characters have access to it. There's plenty of fun guilds for people who want to play a "good" character, or you can even stay guildless.

edited: Typos

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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Elystole » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:01 pm

I will generally always support increased RP requirements for guilds. The only guilds I can think of that wouldn't have RP requirements might be Traders and Mercenaries with their motivation of "lets make more money," but every other guild seems to me like it would want a certain kind of person. Those people should be vetted by existing guild members and not just walk-in, sign up with a recruiter, and be trusted with the guild's reputation, abilities, and secrets.

With the Church, I kind of think that the Inner Light should be something that is awakened in someone after they've demonstrated through their RP that they are that kind of person. I think the Inner Light should be rare and that most Church members do not have the Inner Light in a usable form but are lay supporters like scribes, guards, and the like. Templar and Monk are a cut above because of their Inner Light. In which case I would think a properly RPed Templar or Monk hopeful would be hesitant to even identify themselves as such, as doing so is pretty arrogant, but would be a lay supporter of the Church.

I'll be honest and say I dislike seeing brand new characters run off to join a guild right away because it seems to lead to their character being little more than a combination of abilities. One of the nice things about a skill-based system like CLOK is that, except for magic skills, you can develop your character just fine without guilds. You can RP just fine without a guild. Go guildless for a while, see where your RP takes you, and then join the guild that fits that RP. You'll get better results.
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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Avedri » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:24 pm

I'll counter that by saying our characters have existed long before they came into creation. Especially with the increase in a lot of elderly characters, there is a good chance they already have been managing their skills and abilities in a lot of cases (even if they don't have the mechanics to back it up). So I think it's a generalization to suggest that players shouldn't attempt to join a guild right away.

I would say those who are uncertain or new to a RP-enforced MUD should probably get their feet wet, as it were. But I don't have any problems with veterans or alts of brand new characters immediately moving towards their goals.

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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by jilliana » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:31 pm

First off, I'm all for this. The lore behind thaumaturgy is something that is particularly special and a little different from the standard practice of "magic". As a result, initiation into both these guilds should be considered something special and very much involved.

I am all for having an outlined code of conduct. It's understood by some who have characters involved in the church that we should let our inner light guide us...and do things with compassion and tolerance. However, on occasion we confront situations where we really truly do wonder if by not doing something, or by supporting a certain idea, we would be misrepresenting the church, even if our actions have nothing to do with the church to begin with. I have always felt that these two guilds in particular should be who our characters truly are instead of letting them mold our characters to the extent that our IC actions are no longer natural and as a result we turn into characters that are better off going elsewhere.

It has become a real pet peeve of mine to hear people introduce their characters as "Templar/Monk hopefuls" or "Jane Doe, Templar/Monk at your service". I am not saying that there is shame in being involved in or wanting to be in the guilds, but I also ask that there be something about displaying a certain level of humility and discreetness. (Yeah so they run around with halos, but that's something slightly different.)

Here are a few things I'm wondering about.
* Will one still need to provide a character background if and when approached? If not, will the background be asked about in the interview?
* If a Monk or Templar are told that they are no longer displaying the proper conduct for their specific guild, but display the qualities to be in the other guild...will they given that option? For instance, Jane would rather be a combat oriented Monk. Would she be given the option to be Templar?
* Will Templar and Monks that are already initiated be tested more frequently, or at least soon after the new changes happen to gage where they stand in regards to conduct befitting the requirements of the church?

I would love to suggest that maybe, particularly in the case of Templar, they not have the ability to use Thaumaturgy for a time so that they can further show the qualities that require using the inner light.

I can't wait to see where it goes from here from the IC standpoint. Truly exciting stuff!
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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Drayla » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:05 am

All I can say is I will no longer be playing Zenthyr. And no, it's not because it is too hard for me to RP him or because I don't want to take the time to get into the Knights Templar. It's because Zenthyr was already starting to feel forced and not fun anymore, and now that everyone else can criticize me even more OOCly now and tell me that I'm doing things wrong because I'm not playing the way they are or would, I feel like continuing to play as Zenthyr would just start to make me want to stop playing altogether. So, rather than deal with all the BS, I'm just gonna drop him.

Now, cue beratement for having alts and dropping a character, and claims that alts are the reason I never got into the templars and am no longer having fun attempting to do so.

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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Vitello » Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:52 am

Struggling to not get grumpy over this. Idiot proofing only works to a limited extent. Church has been cut off but there still isn't a rough guideline to behavior.

With Alwaren I figured a Buddhist inspired weapons master/kata/meditation. Not pure combat mind you but it is an aspect of the character. I'm getting looked at funny like it's strange for monks but there isn't any explicit definition about what they should or shouldn't be. People say talk to Dimmes.... while staff are good rpers/gms I hate trying to catch them ic. That and I kind of feel like an attention whore trying to get staff to animate npcs. So I'll just openly say hey this is what I'm doing and if need be Dimmes can summon me.

Something to consider, we all have ideas in our head about our characters. Some things are played out, others don't do much so it's kind of an off camera thing. Characters should have some sort of IG-OOC note file with info on their behavior, beliefs, rituals, hobbies, and goals specifically for staff to look at to see their depth.

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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Lae » Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:31 am

Drayla wrote:All I can say is I will no longer be playing Zenthyr. And no, it's not because it is too hard for me to RP him or because I don't want to take the time to get into the Knights Templar. It's because Zenthyr was already starting to feel forced and not fun anymore, and now that everyone else can criticize me even more OOCly now and tell me that I'm doing things wrong because I'm not playing the way they are or would, I feel like continuing to play as Zenthyr would just start to make me want to stop playing altogether. So, rather than deal with all the BS, I'm just gonna drop him.

Now, cue beratement for having alts and dropping a character, and claims that alts are the reason I never got into the templars and am no longer having fun attempting to do so.



If you're not having fun with a character, don't play them. Nobody should make you feel like you have to play an alt, or at the same time, have to play them a specific way. A lot of the Church members have problems or character flaws, they're not robots. As for the OOC thing, you know, only you can decide what things you'll let people do or say to upset you. There are very few people who play this mud who haven't made an alt, found it not to be fun, and moved on to something else. So I doubt people will give you any grief. You're the one who has the power in the log in screen, play who you want.
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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Rias » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:39 am

I have some general guidelines to be released soon (tm). That said, a monk focusing on combat or weapons is not going to last long. CLOK monks are more similar (though not overly similar) to Western monks than Eastern (not that this should encourage people to say "Well Western monks are this way, so that should be allowed, etc." CLOK monks are their own thing, rather than specifically based off any real-world organization). Their role is to help, heal, be charitable, and asssist others, and to avoid aggression, violence, and combat, which run exactly counter to their thaumaturgic discipline. To help emphasise this, we removed combat-related abilities like Stone Fist, Blade Slap, and Arrow Deflection.

If you want to be a church-associated fighter, aspire to join the Templar - they exist to fill that role.
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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Vitello » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:55 am

Just to be clear cut and dry.

Monks are to be utterly noncombat characters?

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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by jilliana » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:20 am

That's pretty much it.

Rias can correct me if I'm wrong but there are occasions where a Monk is thrown into a situation where they may need to defend themselves. It's not like they just have to stand there and get beaten up in the name of compassion and tolerance.
It seems to be a whole other story when Monks specifically go out seeking combat and trouble.

It's a weird time for a lot of us right now. I know Jilliana is struggling with some things and it may feel like we're stuck in two different worlds with completely different rules. Not saying that is the complete case of the matter, though.
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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Rias » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:06 pm

Correct. Monks should be seeking to avoid combat when at all possible. Agressive or violent actions, such as combat, even if it is deemed "right" or "understandable" or "just a friendly/training spar", will have an impact on their light. This isn't the Church's doing - it's not the Church saying, "How dare you, now we're going to dim your light" (they don't have the power to dim someone's light, anyway). The Church also won't be upset if a monk fights in a situation where it's a last desperate option - defending one's friends and family, or having been fought into a corner with no escape, etc. It will still likely affect their light. The Monk branch of thaumaturgic study and discipline is focused on compassion, healing, peace, and harmony. Aggressive or violent acts, as far as the CLOK world and Monk-branch Thaumaturgy is concerned, go against that, even if the fighting is in "the name of peace" or somesuch. They should be striving for personal pacifism. Otherwise, their thaumaturgic training as a Monk isn't going to go very well.

For clarity: This doesn't mean monks are epexcted to just stand there passively as they or their friends are attacked. (If their friends are capable of fighting back, then the monk would be better off supporting and healing.) This does mean they shouldn't be out training in combat, "just in case" they should ever need it. If that's what you want, you should be seeking to be a Templar. Friendly spar? Still likely going to mess with your inner light. Fighting to defend a baby from a pack of wolves? Still going to happen. "But they're saving a baby!!" That's great, and I hope any monk would do whatever they could in this situation, including fighting the wolves to save the baby. That doesn't mean their light isn't going to be affected by it, though. Doing something "for a good reason" doesn't cause The Way Things Are to suddenly change.

Note that a single instance of saving a baby from a pack of ravenous wolves by violent action isn't going to cause a monk to lose their light completely, nor dim it permanently. If, however, a monk is constantly throwing themselves into situations where - oh gee, I guess violence is my only choice (again), so I'll have to do it - they're going to have a more serious problem. It'll compound.

"What if I want to go along with others to help them in combat? Can I go with templar to fight nethrim and help by healing and other non-direct means? Can I go with a mercenary to help route some highwaymen?" Yes. "But since we're not supposed to be training combat, we'll get totally pwned!" Well, first of all: You likely will be at a disadvantage compared to fighters. Monks aren't supposed to be fighters. They're not supposed to be in the fray. They're not trained to be involved in combat. You should probably have someone in the group guarding you. Second: There's already one ability that's extremely useful for staying out of melee engagement: Flare. It can be used passively to avoid being pulled to Engage, and can also be cast manually to break out of Engage should you find yourself pulled into melee. I'm planning on more monk abilities that can help them avoid combat, as well as temporarily disable aggressors so they and their allies can get away from combat (and escape that pack of wolves that are so intent on killing that poor baby).

For emphasis: If you want to be a Church-associated healer who engages in combat, you should be aspiring to be a Templar, not a Monk. Monks sacrifice combat for the ability to heal all wounds, bring the Undying back to life, and will be getting some further spiffy "buffs" and so forth. Templar sacrifice the more powerful thaumaturgic restorative capabilities for the ability to channel thaumaturgy in a different way that allows for an amount of aggression and direct combat/violent involvement, in the defense of their fellow man.
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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Kunren » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:20 pm

Um. I had an idea that may or may not work out, but it's just a suggestion. What if the only way to get thaumaturgy was with GM approval for serious and hardcore rp? Once they gain the ability to channel, their natural choice would be to join one of the church guilds for training, as they wouldn't be able to do much of anything without training in it. This could even be available for anyone not trained in sorcery, if they put forth the rp effort, though only guileless could join the church of course. Just an idea, not sure how different it is from now though..
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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Fayne » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:03 pm

This technically would be possuble the way things are now. I believe this actually discussed on Skype one day. Basically, it'd y
take some incredibly hard RP to pull off, and even then, your abilities would absolutely stink without the special training and knowledge monks and templar get.
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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Isiaa » Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:19 am

Lore wise, discovering Thaumaturgy by oneself is... Well, stupidly rare. So rare that there is... 1? recorded case we can be certain of?

Also, that would hamper the church far too much. The church is on the look out for good, rather than gifted individuals. If they only took people who were so... benevolent and outgoing that they discovered thaumaturgy on their own, the church would ONLY consist of monks since those who wish to be templars don't have entirely the right attitude. And there would be VERY few monks. It is simply more efficient, I think, for the church to find people who wish to do good and show great self-discipline and TEACH them how to use Thaumaturgy. Obviously, anyone who discoveres Thaumaturgy on their own is a No. 1 target for recruitment and might start off with some sort of advantage compared to the others but it shouldn't be the ONLY way into the church.

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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Kunren » Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:00 am

Ah makes sense. Sorry was more thinking about ways to lessen out people who make monks just to get the yummy thaumaturgy. Forgot completely about lore lol.
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Re: Lost Lands Monastic Order,Knights Templar considering re

Post by Fayne » Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:59 am

I think the extreme dedication and work it takes to get into either guild currently does the job quite nicely.
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