Make all small sheathes closable by default.

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Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Marauder » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:57 pm

Including wrist and ankle sheathes. Or just make wrist and ankle sheathes immune to being spotted and/or stolen from and add a close feature to all dagger sheathes otherwise.

Why should we have to go out of our way to get a basic feature on an item that should have it anyway if it's the only proper way to defend against a thief snagging your daggers and flintlocks?

Additionally, as far as I've seen, none of the three generally accessible towns offer closable dagger/knife sheathes, where holsters almost always come with the ability to be closed.

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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Siegmaer » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:05 pm

Because it very well could be intrinsically designed this way. A lot of dagger sheathes in CLOK's setting could very well not be designed with such clasps, as a dagger is truly meant to be either a tool or a last ditch weapon in most cases in fencing. (This applies to fighting with a longsword, or even an axe. Fencing is a general term.) If you are a dagger specialist and wish your implement to remain safe-guarded, it would be natural for you to pursue such protections for your implement. But on the grand scale of things? It's not something that the everyday person needs or is even concerned about, as a dagger is a very practical item.

As a note, your post comes off far much more as a demand than a request as well.

Additionally, leatherworkers can make closeable sheathes, supplying them with a use outside of making leatherworked items that weigh twenty pounds.

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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Marauder » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:36 pm

Siegmaer wrote:As a note, your post comes off far much more as a demand than a request as well.

That's not really intended, I'm just not understanding the logic behind having to go to another player for a basic item function.

Siegmaer wrote:Additionally, leatherworkers can make closeable sheathes, supplying them with a use outside of making leatherworked items that weigh twenty pounds.

I've been hearing a lot about the over-weighted leather items, which really should be looked into.

Siegmaer wrote:Because it very well could be intrinsically designed this way. A lot of dagger sheathes in CLOK's setting could very well not be designed with such clasps, as a dagger is truly meant to be either a tool or a last ditch weapon in most cases in fencing. (This applies to fighting with a longsword, or even an axe. Fencing is a general term.) If you are a dagger specialist and wish your implement to remain safe-guarded, it would be natural for you to pursue such protections for your implement. But on the grand scale of things? It's not something that the everyday person needs or is even concerned about, as a dagger is a very practical item.

In fencing, maybe, but that's saying everyone in CLOK expects to fight one-on-one battles and have to pull out a dagger or other such small blade due to being disarmed. I approach it from a practicality perspective when playing my Mercenary and some of my other characters. That is, when one weapon becomes damaged or is taken out of the picture against a group of enemies, immediately go for a side arm, which is what a dagger is in war. Additionally, small blades are reliable for surprising opponents. They're not always a last resort, they're as variable as any small weapon or side arm even if you don't specialize in their use. When I play my Mercenary, I rarely ever have to have him wield his dagger unless for its purpose, which is as a backup weapon for if he loses his polearm or gets too heavily injured in one arm to swing it.

Having had a weapon snatched from a hidden container, I'd really prefer it be that hidden containers are always hidden. You could say that a Thief is trained to spot them, but that's saying said Thief has had the time to study all forms of clothing and equipment. A partially-rolled up sleeve does not necessarily mean there's a knife in a wrist sheath there. Sure, you could assume there is one, but if there isn't, you should get a huge penalty in the form of a much higher chance to be caught. I'm also not sure how you steal from a wrist sheath due to where it sits. That's almost the same as stealing a throwing knife from a bandolier, except that'd be slightly harder.

As you said, a dagger is a practical item, but so are holsters that close to protect the flintlock within. You'd think that, in the Lost Lands of all places, people would prefer practical protection as a standard.

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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Tamsin » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:03 am

Taking extra steps to counter a specific play-style or whatever should be a thing I feel, and I'm glad dagger sheathes aren't already built-in countering, myself!

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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Siegmaer » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:08 am

The difference in daggers and holsters is that people typically reached for their dagger in the event of losing their primary weapon to pull it free immediately, in a single motion, to immediately have it at their demand. They didn't fumble with a clasp before pulling it out, as that would have very well spelled the end of their life. A holster typically is adjusted before a battle, and if the intent is to use it, the firearm already drawn. Completely different circumstances. One doesn't have the intent of being used frequently, whereas the other is intended to be used often.

I don't believe that a clasp on a dagger is practical in the slightest, I'm sorry. And regarding the lack of understanding in logic behind needing another player for basic functionalities... CLOK could do with a lot more of that. Things are already very forgiving and handed to people, when more depth could be provided by actually needing another person.

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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Marauder » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:17 am

Once more, very situational, as a clasp could be undone before the start of battle as well. The firearm is not always drawn before the fight, either, as such assumes everyone who uses a firearm in the open is wielding one capable of multiple shots.

As far as relying on players for other basic functionalities goes, I'd really rather not. We have a small enough player base as it stands and there should really be other ways to add incentive for people to interact rather than making us codependent on other people for certain aspects of the game.

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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Tamsin » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:15 am

Mehhhh. People have to grind multiple skills to get a chance to steal a dagger. The opposition should have to expend some form of effort to counter it. All "this makes sense for the crafty Lost Lander" aside for the sake of a balance of effort IMO.

As far as basic functionalities goes though, I don't see the argument in this particular case. Closing sheathes are rather situational in their necessity and purpose, in this game, so it's hardly a basic functionality I guess? Maybe a chance for short weapons to fall out in combat or other strenuous activities, like climbing, chopping trees, punching infested... It starts to get overly complicated if we go down the realism rabbit hole too far (which I might be the only one really doing here, sorry!).

It's kind of unrealistic to have a perfect safeguard like this I'd say in any case. Give pickpockets a chance to slice through a closed sheath's clasp (assuming they're some kind of leather tie, and they're holding a knife of their own) and steal whatever's inside, and then give all the small sheathes close-ability.

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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Jaster » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:39 am

I'm personally of the mind that a skilled pickpocket would be able to open any closed sheath, backpack, or other container on a person without it being realized. So I would argue that there should be an ability to open other peoples closed containers.

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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Marauder » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:16 am

Jaster wrote:I'm personally of the mind that a skilled pickpocket would be able to open any closed sheath, backpack, or other container on a person without it being realized. So I would argue that there should be an ability to open other peoples closed containers.

Once we can permanently cut off someone else's hand(s) for being caught in doing this and stealth gets nerfed some more, I'd be down for this. Nothing like going wholly medieval in punishing someone for trying to snag your favorite revolver.

Also, to be fair, container location and container type should both be capable of adding small to huge additional failure chance if we want to be realistic about it. You're not going be able to swipe a conscious man's throwing knives out from his bandolier, that's on the frontal torso and could be partially layered by a cloak.

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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Jaster » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:49 am

By that argument, you wouldn't be able to snatch a man's money belt right out of his belt loops either, but it happens every day in real life.

If you want to counter pickpocketing in all its forms, train your perception skill. It seems like you're just looking for an easy out.

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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Tamsin » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:36 pm

Jaster wrote: If you want to counter pickpocketing in all its forms, train your perception skill. It seems like you're just looking for an easy out.


I think this hits the nail on the head.

If you're going out of your way to get a fancy knife from an artisan/event shop, might as well put the effort in to get a sheath from a fancy leathersmith to compliment it.

Stock daggers are cheap and I'm sure it's a fun to get to snag one once in a while if one is inclined to do that lifestyle. Don't be afraid to lose a hundred riln here and there, it's a tiiiiny inconvenience at best

I feel the urge to get an open knife sheath with a cheap knife in it on all my characters now to engage the random scoundrel hehe

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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Bryce » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:52 pm

Marauder wrote:it's the only proper way to defend against a thief snagging your daggers and flintlocks
Train dodge to avoid attackers, train perception to to avoid pickpockets.
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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Jirato » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:50 pm

I've told my team members that I'd do better at responding to BBS posts I don't wish to accommodate just because I hate saying no... So, here's my thoughts on this...

As a default option applicable to all sheath types, this isn't going to happen. This could possibly be added as a merchant service at some point. I know, I know. "But Jirato, it's just a couple extra straps of leather and a clasp, that's nothing special. Even players should be able to do it with leatherworking!" I want to keep it special. It should be a "premium" feature offered to those lucky enough to catch a visiting merchant. Yes, it's a bit gamey this way, but I want it that way. If any permanent shops are selling closable/concealable sheaths already, then I'm not aware of these and I'd like to see them changed to standard sheaths.

Stealing from concealed sheaths: I don't like this, if the sheath is under a piece of clothing, a thief shouldn't be able to target it. However, if I change this, I'd also add a 5 second roundtime to retrieving/putting away a weapon in said concealed sheath, if not blocking the ability to use them altogether unless you remove the clothing covering them.... I'm pretty sure y'all would hate that...

Stealing from weapon containers in general: I also don't like this, but it's kinda the way it's been. Again, more of a gamey reason than a realism reason, but weapons are kinda dear to players and I hate that thieves can steal them. But, if I made it so thieves could only steal from general purpose containers, they'd complain, and everyone who previously had a weapon stolen would complain that the change came too late / they should get their weapons back.

So, I'm not really looking at making any changes to anything relating to this at this time.
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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Bryce » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:55 pm

Can people ask Twilight Eye to recover stolen registered items for them, or is that just for dropped and otherwise accidentally lost items? If so, that could help comfort people who had a treasured weapon stolen.
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Re: Make all small sheathes closable by default.

Postby Jirato » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:01 pm

Bryce wrote:Can people ask Twilight Eye to recover stolen registered items for them, or is that just for dropped and otherwise accidentally lost items? If so, that could help comfort people who had a treasured weapon stolen.


They can certainly try, though it's definitely not guaranteed to work, and there would be a fee involved that may or may not be cost prohibitive depending on the situation (Majority of the fee would only be charged upon success). It would all be done on a case-by-case basis.
[GMCHAT Uyoku]: Octum is when the octumbunny comes around and lays pumpkins everywhere right?
[GMCHAT Rias]: Dimmes says "oh hai :) u need healz? ill get u dont worry thaum lasers pew pew pew lol"
[CHAT - GameMaster Rias would totally nuke Rooks]: Here's how elemancy works: The freeblegreeble and the zippoflasm have to be combined with the correct ration of himbleplimp, then you add the gargenheimer and adjust the froopulon for the pattern you want, apply some tarratarrtarr, yibble the wantaban, and let 'er rip!

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