Infirmary Healing

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Jaster
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Post by Jaster » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:06 pm

[quote=hadesfire]that was a joke, but yeah, I grind on hours then end up with 200 RT for healing. The bank is going to be so mad at me for never paying my debts. Speaking of which, is there a repurcussion for that?[/quote]

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Post by hadesfire » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:19 am

Could healers also reduce the price if you give them the herbs for the bandages or some of the bandages? Now they just have to produce the bandage.

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Post by Kiyaani » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:14 am

Maybe this belongs under Suggestions/Features, but I was thinking it would be nice if the infirmary healer could tell you how much it will be before treating you, much like ordering something from a shop. The prices can start to add up and you may want only 1-2 heals instead of a healall until you can find a monk.

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Ragn
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Post by Ragn » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:42 am

Ask healer about diagnose or something, giving you a rundown on the price for each injury.

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Post by Avedri » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:50 am

So in order to encourage RP between player's you're mechanically making it more difficult? Why not just reward people RPing?

I just do not like this change at all, ever since the farming changes I've struggled to earn riln and with combat the way it is, it's costing me at least the amount of money I get from turning in tasks to get healed. You're making the challenge aspect start to outweigh the fun and some of us don't have time for that sadly.

This hard mode might have pushed me to stop logging in because frankly you're rewarding those who can heal and creating a vulture-like scenario for them. Especially when you consider other alliances don't have healing abilities.
Last edited by Avedri on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kiyaani » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:23 am

After additional testing it seems like anything moderate+ is 20/bandage and light/scrape is 10/bandage. If you walk into the infirmary with just scrapes on every body part you're looking at over 100 riln and at least 90 seconds of RT which is almost as bad as how it was pre-change since even after that RT you have to wait for the bandages to finish their work before you can go out and continue training your skills (professions aside).

Untreated bandages from the infirmary cost 1-2 riln each and will heal light-scrape slowly, but for less cost and less RT overall, but it's annoying to have to replace them so frequently. Is this mechanic still being looked into to make it more in-line with being able to 1) continue to do other activities even if you come in with a full set of wounds (1-2 wounds is manageable) 2) avoid unnecessary RT that leaves your character incapacitated if someone decides to attack or forces you to RP with those you may wish to avoid.

Otherwise we're looking at basically having to do one of two things - find a monk or buy/trade for all your bandages and potentially avoid infirmaries entirely. Some of us like to play on breaks at work or between RL obligations and don't necessarily have giant chunks of time to be logged in allowing bandages to do their work before we can go train further to get our characters to a point skills-wise where we're comfortable sitting around RPing.

Yes I realize I have a lot of alts and that most of them have the riln to support this change, but it provides, as-is, a challenge that I feel will be very off-putting to new players.

On the plus side - no charge for new characters is exceedingly helpful, but may not last long enough to earn the riln to support healing.

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Post by Lysse » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:59 am

A lack of reward is not the same as a punishment.



That being said, I don't see how it's difficult to earn riln. Farming needed to be changed, as before it was netting in ludicrous amounts of riln; the same happened with logging. As it stands, I can make make plenty of riln just from killing mobs, without even setting out to use it. If you're finding that you have trouble managing your money in game, you can take steps to curb your spending, such as by cooking your own food. Riln is not hard to make, by any stretch of the imagination.

Secondly, the only people on the MUD that can not receive thaumaturgic healing are heavily Nether tainted people. I've known of at least one Monk who's offered healing to the majority of the playerbase, despite their alliance. No one is not allowed to make use of Thaumaturgic healing. There is always a choice. If you choose to RP disliking Thaumaturgy, then that is something you need to deal with.

Thirdly, Thaumaturgy is hardly the ONLY means for healing. As many have stated above, Herbalism based healing is VERY efficient. I've seen poultices take wounds from badly damage to lightly damaged in little to no time. If you want to heal more quickly than the Infirmary allows you to, it would be wise to either purchase poulticed bandages from another party, or make them yourselves.

Ultimately, there are several paths one can choose when approaching healing. If you're getting so wounded from combat that it's costing you the majority of your riln, then you may need to re-evaluate how you're fighting. The majority of the time when someone has problems with tasks, it's because they have a poorly balanced skillset. Rooks, for instance, have a tendency to train only magic based skills while eschewing things like dodge, because they want to rely on their magic. Which is fine, but it also limits what you can do in a fight. Again, you are given choices.

I'm playing a character that cannot enter major towns, or even purchase things and make use of services in many hamlets. To say that the healing in the game is "too hard" for you or that something is "not feasible" is a rather laughable matter. Yes, I chose to play this character knowing the difficulties I would have, but everything in this game boils down to choice. You choose to do things a certain way, and there are repercussions for it.

I firmly stand by my opinion that this change to the infirmary system is a good change. The wait times are MORE than reasonable in regards to the time it takes to actually be bandaged, and the fact that I can do things WHILE I'm healing is even better. That's downtime I can take to take care of small errands in game such as cooking, processing crafting materials, or even to roleplay. The time it takes for the wounds to heal is also more than fair, I believe (even with a full set of light wounds).

Trying to have a system in which roleplaying is purely rewarded based on a GM Merit system never works well. There will always be people that are jealous that one person may receive rewards over another. There are also MANY players who simply refuse to roleplay outside of cities, which hurts players that would prefer to eschew city life. I can't count the number of people I've seen that have run past me while I've been in plain sight on a road, or even just in the woods, most of them not injured. A system that rewards players who go out to either 1.) get their own healing done (in one form or another) or 2) seek out other PCs and interact with them is a great idea to me.
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Post by Rias » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:24 pm

We appreciate all the feedback, and I hope people won't get turned off to the game over anything just yet. This was the first stage in trying the change, and we're waiting a while to test and get feedback. There will certainly be tweaks here and there as we try to find a good balance, so we hope players will trudge through the testing phases and continue to help give us productive feedback so we can find that happy balance instead of jumping ship.

Thanks, and please keep discussing.
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Post by Avedri » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:37 pm

As someone who doesn't play the game constantly, the change is absolutely off-putting and again you're rewarding people's complaints that they didn't get interaction for healing. No other guild is going to be as easy to level both in skill and guild points as monks will be now, it's imbalanced. I do not make that much when I go out to level my skills in the current skill appropriate areas and when I get finished I always require a huge amount of healing, which under the new system pretty much takes away the riln I've gained. I don't think that's an exclusive experience as I've grouped up with a great deal of people and it seems to be the norm so maybe it's that the combat system needs review.

This system doesn't reward people who get their own healing or seek out others, it punishes others by forcing them to spend riln which is taxing on people who play casually. Time that would have been spent leveling in my guild or through gaining skills now has to be spent searching for herbs that are already exceptionally hard to come by when other people have to forage for them for both healing and tasks. In effect, it's making a game like a chore and that's never fun. I already stopped playing my trader because the tasks change was so impacting to the time I had to spend to level in the guild.

Additionally, as someone who is a *Mentor* in the game, I'd expect you to address people on the forums with a little bit more civility and understanding than taunting them for voicing their opinions. It reflects poorly on the status of mentors within the game as a whole.
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Post by Kiyaani » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:44 pm

The change is good, yes. And it makes sense, yes. That's not what I have a problem with. I feel the RT and healing time involved plus the cost when trying to focus on combat training puts the player in a severe challenge mode since there are so few healers available. Despite it being efficient if you get one of the heavily poulticed bandages, if the herbalist gives you something for a lighter wound it takes longer to heal sometimes than the severe wound and thaumaturgic healing IS still the most efficient and effective way to heal.

In order to train combat efficiently you have to go to challenging areas. Don't expect to go to such places and not get hurt and please don't imply that getting hurt in these places means you're doing something wrong - it doesn't. If getting hurt wasn't part of combat what would be the point? Even doing a combat task (75 gp and 200 riln) will send you to places where you may become severely wounded while trying to complete your assignment, or even die several times if you're just starting out (again, no cost for new players is amazing). With those facts in-mind, the cost of healing can quickly surpass the riln awarded for completing your task - that's not even counting the cost of training skills.

As it is now, infirmary healing makes things very difficult for casual players to get into the swing of things, especially if they choose to play something we sorely lack - an evil character (or any lone-wolf type) who may not want to spend time or for RP reasons may not be willing to learn first aid and herbalism just so they can train martial skills enough to play their character how they want it to be played.

Yes, it's a choice to play that way. But there should still be alternatives provided or possibly just a tweak to this current system to allow players to still be able to make the character they want to play without having to deviate just to stay alive and well.

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Post by Lysse » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:00 pm

I respond with civility when appropriate. I was asked to be a mentor, and accepted, and have gone out of my way more than once to help people, as well as to be friendly and polite to people that are also friendly and polite; you, as of late, have been neither. If you disagree with my mentor status, then you should bring it up to the GMs. My previous post was hardly me "taunting" anyone. I was voicing my own opinions.

Had you posted constructive criticism, or perhaps worded your own post more politely, I would have responded in a more polite way. Being a mentor does not mean that I have to be the nicest person on the world, and it does not mean I can't respond to harsh posts as I normally would. And if the GMs think the way I act is inappropriate, then I would prefer them remove my Mentor status.

The people that have complained the most about the new changes to the Infirmary system have had little to actually offer in terms of feedback, rather than they dislike it. I can understand this. However, the lack of a reward is not punishment. If you're having an issue training in an area, then chances are something faulty either with your skills or with the way you're actually fighting. If you're having an issue earning riln, then chances are there's something you can do to actually cut down on the riln you're spending. It's more than possible to play the game spending little to no riln. In either case, I would suggest re-evaluating what you're actually doing in the game. Take some time, one playing session, to hunt and cook your own food, so that you have food rather than needing to purchase it. Take a look at your skills, or your playstyle, and try to figure out what you could potentially be doing better, rather than blaming the combat system of the game.

Herbs, similarly, are not that hard to find depending on what you're after. And using lower end poultices to bandage less severe wounds can be just as effective as waiting until you're bleeding, and only then using bandages. Or perhaps try to work on taking less damage in a fight. If you're unable to wear heavy armor, put more effort into training dodging, or even pick up the use of a shield, or a weapon with a better parry rating. Even light leather armor goes a LONG way towards helping reduce incoming damage, particularly at lower skill levels.

I don't have ready access to thaumaturgic healing more than anyone else, and I enjoy the changes. The healing time is on par with what I've experienced on most other MUDs. And there are other things you can do with the time it takes for the bandages to work. I find that promotes roleplay much better than being stuck in roundtime for 200-300 seconds, unable to even sit up. I also much prefer it.


And I'm not saying that you should NEVER get hurt. But rather, there are ways to alleviate how much damage you take. You can rest between fights, manage your wounds earlier on to alleviate skill penalties, that sort of thing. I'm fully aware how much of a hassle it can be to play a "lone wolf" character. I've been doing it for some time. If you want to be mostly independant then it is far more difficult to do compared to regularly requesting healing or aid from other PCs, which is as it should be I believe.
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Post by Avedri » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:08 pm

[quote=Lysse]I respond with civility when appropriate. I was asked to be a mentor, and accepted, and have gone out of my way more than once to help people, as well as to be friendly and polite to people that are also friendly and polite; you, as of late, have been neither. If you disagree with my mentor status, then you should bring it up to the GMs. My previous post was hardly me "taunting" anyone. I was voicing my own opinions.

Had you posted constructive criticism, or perhaps worded your own post more politely, I would have responded in a more polite way. Being a mentor does not mean that I have to be the nicest person on the world, and it does not mean I can't respond to harsh posts as I normally would. And if the GMs think the way I act is inappropriate, then I would prefer them remove my Mentor status.

[/quote]


Only help people who you like, got it. Get defensive when you've made a mistake, check.

I'm done with hijacking the thread, I've voiced my concerns and opinions clearly and directly. Thanks for taking the time to read them dev.
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Post by Jirato » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:18 pm

[quote=Kiyaani]if the herbalist gives you something for a lighter wound it takes longer to heal sometimes than the severe wound[/quote]

Just to clarify. The herbalist uses 101 poultices for light wounds and 102 poultices for severe wounds. These have the exact same healing frequencies, the only difference between them (besides cost) is the severity of wounds they are capable of treating.
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Post by Francesca » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:23 pm

I don't think there is any need to fall out about this. I don't see anything insulting about either of Lysse's posts, she was just stating her opinion on the matter. I happen to think Lysse does a good job of being a mentor, which is to help out new people with questions.

I like this change a lot, big thanks to Jirato for working on it. :)

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Post by Lae » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:08 pm

Just going to pop in and politely state that I've been rank 18 for about six months now. Gaining ranks as a monk can and has been super difficult for me. I heal people in infirmaries. I grind herbs like crazy and turn them in, and I rescue templar whenever I have a chance and I still have over 2500 GP to go. I think that it may be overestimated just exactly how much GP a monk gets from healing a PC, but it's not a lot. Besides that, ever since the change not a single person has still tracked me down for healing, and I really don't expect that to change.

I would love to see more ideas get posted here on ways to make this easier for everyone. Heck, I'd love to heal more people. At this point I think that both of the above won't happen.
Last edited by Lae on Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Francesca » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:15 pm

This is why I made the healing thread to try and find out why so many don't seek monk/church members help. I'm not sure I understand still, hopefully something will change...

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Post by Kiyaani » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:28 pm

Thanks for the clarification on the healing rate, Jirato.

I'm not a person, Lae? =( I know that you have said you never mind healing when a player asks, but it still feels odd to me to go on a training streak and need heals every few minutes, pulling you away from what you're doing and what I'm doing just to get a few wounds tended. At that point I feel like I'm being a bit needy IC haha. Maybe one of these days I'll just drag you with me so I don't have to go back and forth and you can get your fill of points from heals.

Again though, that type of playstyle won't fit every character. It didn't used to fit Kiyaani. Based on the thread Francesca made, it may not even fit MOST of our characters as they don't want thaumaturgic healing. I think overall this change is good, but it may not be entirely balanced as-is and that's all I'm saying, not that it's wrong, just that I'd like the RT/Cost ratios reviewed. And until we get more capable healers online consistantly (Lae can't do it alone and can't be there at all times), we can't rely entirely on thaumaturgy either, so I feel it's important to make infirmary healing options a priority.

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Post by Kiyaani » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:29 pm

That said... I think someone mentioned alchemy?
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Post by Lysse » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:33 pm

I could be wrong, but I vaguely recall someone stating that "healing potions" wouldn't fit in with the lore and theme of Clok. I could be mistaken.

That being said, I'm not sure there would be much difference in the current situation, and if we had access to healing potions. I imagine they would be more time consuming to make, and still require the same if not more exotic herbs to make as poultices. That's pure speculation of course, but it seems like that would be the most likely route for "alchemical healing", if it were to be implemented.



I also don't think Francesca's thread yielded very accurate results. Not many people actually responded to it, unfortunately.
Last edited by Lysse on Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Francesca » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:44 pm

I play for several hours most days, and quite often offer healing to people. So far, only one person regularly asks for my help. I may not be a monk, but I can still offer thaumaturgic healing. Unfortunately, most people turn me down, and that might be why theres such a shortage of people that regularly play monks. If I have trouble finding people that want to be healed, a monk probably would too

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Post by Rias » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:30 pm

Roundtime's been reduced to 2 per bandage, as the NPCs are pro at first aid, to match up with high-skill First Aid benefits that player characters enjoy. I totally derped on that one, it's my fault. I swear bandaging used to take 10 seconds!
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Post by Lae » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:03 pm

[quote=Kiyaani]Thanks for the clarification on the healing rate, Jirato.

I'm not a person, Lae? =( I know that you have said you never mind healing when a player asks, but it still feels odd to me to go on a training streak and need heals every few minutes, pulling you away from what you're doing and what I'm doing just to get a few wounds tended. [/quote]


I usually run into you without you needing to ask. The whole emphasis on my post was the asking thing. You've asked once or twice but usually we just meet up in unnatural ways. (WE MUST BE CONNECTED)

Also, I log in and I sit around and cook pies. Trust me people - you're not dragging me away from nether fight night 2013. You're probably interrupting me cooking fish or something. I WANT TO BE INTERRUPTED.

There are not enough monks in this game, and I firmly believe that a large part of that is because we feel pretty redundant. Bother me, PLEASE. I would love to have a chance to interact with anyone on the mud. EVEN LEMUEL (please take that for the humor that was behind it) So someone bother me. Plz.

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Post by Kiyaani » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:37 pm

Thanks, Rias.

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Post by Rithiel » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:05 pm

You should be thanking me! He just took credit for the anti-nerf.
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Kiyaani
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Post by Kiyaani » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:26 pm

Fine! Thanks, Rithiel =D

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