bro fist tactics thoughts

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bro fist tactics thoughts

Postby sona » Sun May 31, 2015 7:36 am

Not sure if you guys are looking for 'tactics' tactics, or something else, but I thought I could throw out some ideas at least, feel free to yay, nay, or even just talk about and add to the thread.

Qi strikes/energy disruptions - sure, it is heavily asian influenced, but in this setting/game, I think it might be applicable with sorcerers and whatnot. mechanically, i'd be inclined to say that this would work best against lightly armored, or unarmored opponents, and might have a chance to cause an 'energy bleed'.

Grappling - might put you at a significant disadvantage while attempting to grapple, trying to dodge those dangerous weapons, but when successful, the opponent is unable to swing a weapon. Opponents may headbutt, kick, punch, and brawl, but doesn't have the room to get a decent swing or thrust in with a weapon. If opponent continues to use a weapon while grappled, their damage rolls are weighted lower. This combat style isn't particularly effective against other brawlers, but is favored against non-brawlers.

Bare knuckle/gloved boxing - Focuses on speed and strength. reduced RT for brawling by 1 second, but costs extra energy to be in this mode. Each round is more draining to the user and they may find themselves getting tired quickly if the fight drags on a long time. (Intent is to give brawlers some chance in a fight beyond the "energy attrition" fight)

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Re: bro fist tactics thoughts

Postby Acarin » Sun May 31, 2015 9:50 am

As amazing as it would be to have cool Ki blasts, pushing techniques, and Ki distruption (vital point targeting), I think that this is way too Asian and we've been told this will never happen. It's also very unrealistic. Love to see it but sure it won't happen. There's nothing "supernatural" about brofist. They're brawlers, pure and simple...

With that in mind, I have ideas for quite a few tactics, some of which could be generalized if the GMs see this as appropriate. It might be cool to have brofist abilities center around different tactics so we have to pick and choose a little bit more but have unique fighting styles based on our tactics (I think this is close to what Jirato had originally intended, only not based on the standard tactics). I'll try to highlight this a bit. It might be cool to see a bit of a rework for brofists with these new tactics and generalization as some of the abilities we currently have could be converted to tactics.

Tactics ideas:

Tactic: Brute Force
When unarmed, attempts to overwhelm an opponent with brute force alone. Hit really hard and don't let up (because the best defense is an overwhelming offense)!
Passive: Chance to convert bludgeon damage to crush (as brute force currently provides). Attempts to integrate stunning techniques into combat (or as an additional strike at the end of combat like dirty tricks provides) and press an opponent.
Pre-req:
Headbutt (could be added as an extra attack like with dirty tricks)
Pre-req to:
Heavy blows (suggest a heavier version of each attack type, not just punches, with a small chance for each to stun/introduce rt)

Tactic: Counter-striker
When unarmed, attempts to counter an opponent's strike and disable them.
Active: Works a lot like tactic swashbuckling, but executes a limited brawling combo (limited to 3 or 4 attacks) with either disarm, sweep (possible grappling attack or throw) at the end. It could execute pre-emptively or on a successful parry/dodge.
Pre-req:
Disarm
Sweep
(Other disabling attacks)

Tactic: Movement economy
An unarmed combatant is most effective when movement is not wasted, both defensively and offensively. Learn to strike without visible tells and avoid winding your attacks. Use the minimal movement needed to avoid or execute an attack. This efficiency will allow for extra speed and prevent your opponent from predicting your next move.
Passive: Replaces basic, intermediate, and advanced combos, granting an additional brawling combo attack at XXX, XXX, and XXX ranks of brawling (whatever the prereq brawling skill is for these abilities currently). If active, defensive roll pushdown on each successive brawling attack (representing the inability of the enemy to predict the next attack). Possible small decrease in energy cost from brawling.
Pre-req to:
Improved dodge

Tactic: Weakness Exploitation
Aiming for vital points can quickly disable an enemy. The throat, liver, kidney, groin, temple, etc. are all weak points that can be exploited by a talented brawler to open up a target and unleash greater force.
Brawling combos will attempt to hit a vital area mid combo (and introduce some sort of disabling effect similar to dirty tricks or possibly even unconscious status from a temple shot or suffocation from a throat shot). Each successive strike following a vital strike will result in a defensive pushdown or added damage.
Could require several targeted abilities [temple shot (unconscious), liver strike (delayed knockdown and rt), groinkick (brawling only version of dirty trick), etc.]

Tactic: Redirection (could be renamed as I think there's already an Utasa ability with this name?)
Attempts to redirect an opponents attack and control their movement. Great for multiple attackers. Does NOT cause one opponent to attack another, but instead redirects the body of an opponent between you and another to prevent them from attack, and automatically flank.
Active tactic: On successful parry, has a chance to push one enemy in front of other enemies and take the flank of the first. Attacks from other enemies could briefly be directed towards the first enemy (i.e. first enemy would effectively be briefly guarding you).

Tactic: Advance and Retreat
Attempts to automatically retreat to position avoid after an attack. Large bonus to actively engaging an enemy

Tactic: Precision striking
Overwhelming an enemy with attacks to the same area is a very effective strategy. While using this tactic, a large bonus to aiming is granted. If aiming is occuring to an area that a specific offensive ability is targeting (i.e. legs for sweep, head for temple shot, abdomen for liver strike, etc.), there would be an increased chance to execute this attack at the end of a combo.

More coming eventually!

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Re: bro fist tactics thoughts

Postby Acarin » Sun May 31, 2015 9:59 am

One more...

Tactic: Wind and Stone
A defensive tactic that relies on a strong body and fast movements. The body becomes a stone wall while moving as fluidly as the wind. Bonuses to dodge and parry (offense takes a hit except under a special circumstance) and a slight overall reduction in damage from melee attacks due to keeping the opponent at a range that is not ideal for weapon use. Chance to "move in" on a strike, tying up (pressing) the enemy and temporarily reducing their accuracy since you move in too close (control their range) to effectively target. In such a case, a rapid reactive close range brawling combo may be executed at elevated precision (moderate chance for this to occur). Unable to attack without being attacked while using this tactic.
Active tactic.
Pre-req:
Physical Conditioning, Improved Dodge, Pain Suppression

EDIT: Just a note, but I got all of these ideas from real principles of combat from different styles globally. If anyone has any questions, wants to discuss, or needs an example of the type of style I'm referring to with one of these, please let me know.

EDIT 2: Another thought I just had is that if these are all made as active tactics rather than passive, each could also confer a passive "principle" that is applied to other tactics as well (i.e. added combo attacks with movement economy, chance to "move in" reducing enemy accuracy with Wind and Stone, improved engage chance with Advance and Retreat, etc.)
Last edited by Acarin on Sun May 31, 2015 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: bro fist tactics thoughts

Postby Rias » Sun May 31, 2015 10:05 am

Acarin's right that we won't be seeing ki blasts and kamehamehas and such, but aside from that, I think these suggestions are super neat and would help differentiate Brofists from other brawlers, helping them keep their unique identity and power.
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Re: bro fist tactics thoughts

Postby Acarin » Sun May 31, 2015 10:08 am

Thanks Rias! Let me know if you or Jirato want to discuss any of these. I've been trying out new martial art styles for the past year or so and have gotten some great new ideas about martial principles and tactics from it.

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Re: bro fist tactics thoughts

Postby preiman » Sun May 31, 2015 10:21 am

I wonder if some of the tactics that reduce weapon effectiveness should be less effective with smaller lighter weapons. I could use a dagger in a grapple with little problem, and hatchet/shortsword work is meant to be right in close.
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Re: bro fist tactics thoughts

Postby Sneaky » Sun May 31, 2015 10:33 am

Tactic: Brute Force
I think that this tactic should also reduce the number of attacks you deal out since you're putting so much effort into each strike. Oh yeah, and parrying a headbutt should cause some massive damage since you're pretty much impaling your head on their weapon.
Tactic: Counter-striker
I think if this attempt fails you should have a decent chance to injur yourself, or the attacker should have a chance to get in an extra attack if they fail. Grabbing your enemy's sword or what not while they're still holding it would be very risky.

Tactic: Movement economy
The way that this is described sounds like it should probably also reduce the amount of damage each blow deals, mainly because you're saying that they're trying to hide their visible tell tell signs of attack.

Tactic: Weakness Exploitation
These sound alright, but the fact that it'd most likely be brawling based scares me. You can get brawling up much faster than stealth, and so there's a really good chance of being successful with these against most anybody. Stealth is much slower and harder to work with than any combat skill, but I suppose the GM's would make this so it's balanced out, perhaps their brawling abilities vs their target's weapon skill and full melee like how disarm and feint work.

Tactic: Redirection (could be renamed as I think there's already an Utasa ability with this name?)
This sounds neat, but I don't think it should be restricted to brawlers specificly. That said, it feels like this tactic might be too powerful to implament.

Tactic: Advance and Retreat
This sounds a lot like springback which I understood was going to be removed or super nerfed, so...

Tactic: Precision striking
There's already hyper focus which pretty much does the same as what you're suggesting. It also has a cooldown, so I believe this should be an ability rather than a tactic with a similar cooldown like hyperfocus, though without the super addition to your skills obviously, but the aded chance to deliver those critical strikes makes up for that. Oh, and Hyper Focus and this ability should probably not stack for obvious reasons.
Last edited by Sneaky on Sun May 31, 2015 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: bro fist tactics thoughts

Postby Acarin » Sun May 31, 2015 10:43 am

preiman wrote:I wonder if some of the tactics that reduce weapon effectiveness should be less effective with smaller lighter weapons. I could use a dagger in a grapple with little problem, and hatchet/shortsword work is meant to be right in close.


Most of these rely upon controling the arms and body positioning, not necessarily the weapon itself. While it might make sense for it to be less effective with daggers or brawling weapons (considering these are used by skilled combatants almost in the same way one would use fists), a shortsword or hatchet would certainly be impaired. You can impair a brawler (not carrying a weapon) by controlling their range. Certainly something to consider if the GMs intend to implement and of these though.

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Re: bro fist tactics thoughts

Postby Acarin » Sun May 31, 2015 10:57 am

Sneaky wrote:Tactic: Brute Force
I think that this tactic should also reduce the number of attacks you deal out since you're putting so much effort into each strike.
Tactic: Counter-striker
I think if this attempt fails you should have a decent chance to injur yourself, or the attacker should have a chance to get in an extra attack if they fail. Grabbing your enemy's sword or what not while they're still holding it would be very risky.

Tactic: Movement economy
The way that this is described sounds like it should probably also reduce the amount of damage each blow deals, mainly because you're saying that they're trying to hide their visible tell tell signs of attack.

Tactic: Weakness Exploitation
These sound alright, but the fact that it'd most likely be brawling based scares me. You can get brawling up much faster than stealth, and so there's a really good chance of being successful with these against most anybody. Stealth is much slower and harder to work with than any combat skill, but I suppose the GM's would make this so it's balanced out, perhaps their brawling abilities vs their target's weapon skill and full melee like how disarm and feint work.

Tactic: Redirection (could be renamed as I think there's already an Utasa ability with this name?)
This sounds neat, but I don't think it should be restricted to brawlers specificly. That said, it feels like this tactic might be too powerful to implament.

Tactic: Advance and Retreat
This sounds a lot like springback which I understood was going to be removed or super nerfed, so...

Tactic: Precision striking
There's already hyper focus which pretty much does the same as what you're suggesting. It also has a cooldown, so I believe this should be an ability rather than a tactic with a similar cooldown like hyperfocus, though without the super addition to your skills obviously, but the aded chance to deliver those critical strikes makes up for that. Oh, and Hyper Focus and this ability should probably not stack for obvious reasons.


Brute force:
Powerful strikes aren't necessarily slower, so I don't agree. If it's a balance thing, sure I'd bite, but pushing through on the strike actually decreases the force you exert and this is the only reason strikes would slow down. Using brute force often involves not necessarily punching THAT much harder, but just not letting up on attacks.

Counter-striker:
Disagree. One should never attempt to make contact with the weapon with a parry counter to the weapons momentum. Most such attacks are performed by diverting the body (in this case, upper arm) anyways, so I don't think a chance of injury is in order. This is already basically implemented for light swords so why not for unarmed combat. It's a valid unarmed strategy as well.

Movement economy:
Strength isn't necessarily lost by winding. The idea would be that instead of shifting the point of origin of an attack, as some styles do, each attack is executed from the place the previous attack ended. It simply reduces visibility of incoming attacks without sacrificing power. In most cases, attacks hit more accurately and possibly harder since the opponent does not have time to tense, turn, or minimize the attack. Completely disagree in this case.

Weakness exploitation:
This really has nothing to do with stealth so I'm not sure why you're bringing this up. Stealth is for dirty tricks (which I'm not sure it should be). Not sure why you're making the comparison.

Redirection:
Agree. This would actually be a pretty cool general tactic as long as the "guarding" effect was very brief.

Advance and Retreat:
Didn't know about springback but interesting. Thanks for bringing that up.

Precision Striking:
Agreed. Would be a bit like hyperfocus but without the insane bonuses to dodge and perception. Instead it would give a chance to execute additional disabling attacks (for an ability point investment). I'd be ok with hyperfocus not working with it (although maybe it just wouldn't effect the aiming bonus).

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Re: bro fist tactics thoughts

Postby Acarin » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:31 am

Tactics: Submission

The brawler attempts to use locks and control techniques in combat. Reduces brawling combo by half, but will attempt to execute a hand lock, wrist lock, arm lock, or clinch/head/neck lock after each combo (basically these could have the same effect, dropping the opponent to some prone position and stunning them/disabling their attack for as long as the lock can be maintained... with checks to see if the opponent can slip out). While the lock is maintained, additional limited combos (have one hand, feet and elbows free) can be performed on the disabled opponent but no other opponents can be engaged.

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Re: bro fist tactics thoughts

Postby Acarin » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:43 pm

Tactics: Aggression

Controlled aggression can turn the tide of any match. Striking fear into the heart of your opponent through loud surprising shouts and quick direct movements (while skill maintaining self-control) keeps your opponent on the defensive and diverts their attention.

Attempts to execute at least one "display of aggression" in each combo. The surprise factor can cause a large decrease in defensive rolls and additional damage on each brawling attack that follows within the combo while the opponent attempts to wrap their mind around what has just happened and is therefore off guard.

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