Import shop

Artisans of the Western Coalition, specializing in resource-gathering and crafting.
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Re: Import shop

Post by sona » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:18 am

Sometimes I do. I mostly try to moderate the emotion in my posts, and sometimes a bit comes out so that sometimes it's a bit sharper than may be necessary and there can be a lot of reasons that spur those emotions on. I do try and keep it pretty reasonable though, so I'll try and explain some things that simply can lead to more emotionally tinted postings.

1) As a player who plays a single character, it becomes a little bit annoying when players who don't main artisans put in on artisan issues. You're simply not very invested in the guild if you're not an active part of it or it's not your only character.

2) Downplaying an issue, saying that it's not so bad. It's aggravating because if I'm posting about it, I feel like it's an issue which could use addressing or discussion, hopefully to the point of resolution. downplaying it can make me feel that my concerns aren't valid.

Those are my top 2 off the top of my head. I'm sure everyone has their own list of things that can sort of aggravate them into posting more emotionally. I could probably go more in depth about this, but I don't think it's really necessary at this point. At the end of the day, I want to ensure conversation, discussion, and see if decisions can be reached and/or a compromise come to.

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Re: Import shop

Post by Vaylon » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:34 am

sona wrote:1) As a player who plays a single character, it becomes a little bit annoying when players who don't main artisans put in on artisan issues. You're simply not very invested in the guild if you're not an active part of it or it's not your only character.
Even if we don't play artisans, our input is still valuable. Do you really want a discussion, or do you just want to be the only one talking?
sona wrote:2) Downplaying an issue, saying that it's not so bad. It's aggravating because if I'm posting about it, I feel like it's an issue which could use addressing or discussion, hopefully to the point of resolution. downplaying it can make me feel that my concerns aren't valid.
To me, a lack of imports in the shop seems like a minor annoyance rather than a game-breaking major issue. I think it would be beneficial to you to consider the other perspectives that people in this thread have been offering.

My own opinion on this is that you should step back and consider whether or not the lack of imports in the shop are really preventing you from functioning ordinarily as an Artisan or playing the game. It isn't as if your ability to forge has been taken away completely: you're simply lacking access to rare materials. There are other ways of looking at the shortage of imports. For example:

• Perhaps you should turn the lack of imports into an opportunity. Maybe the price of a riversteel, bloodglass, or cobalt weapon can reflect their actual rarity, now. Charge people even more riln for those expensive materials!
• Hire PC miners to dig like crazy until they reach those rare veins. Sometimes it takes riln to make riln, and it would also provide a way to interact with other characters.
• Is another Artisan hoarding all the good stuff? Maybe you can negotiate with him to release some of the materials for you.
• Maybe there are less-savory ways to acquire the rare materials you desire. Hire some enterprising and not-so-ethical people to "acquire" the materials, whether locally or from abroad. Lots of people smuggle things past the quarantine, after all. It isn't just the Western Coalition.
• Turn the absence of new imports into a roleplaying prompt. Why are there no imports? Is some rotten, no-good, damn dirty thief robbing them all before they can get to Haiban? Dunwyr? Something more sinister? Time to put on your Professor Layton hat and find out.

And let's be frank, here: 1500 riln a month is a drop in the bucket for Artisans. I pay 1500 riln a month, and even if I didn't lift a finger to earn a single riln, I could pay the 1500 riln a month dues for real-life years to come -- and I don't make nearly as much riln as an Artisan does. I don't think stomping your feet and saying, "I pay 1500 riln a month!" is going to convince anyone to stock the import shop.
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Re: Import shop

Post by merin » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:23 am

First, this thread has gotten way off topic, really. I’ve read posts about nothing to do with import shop. I’m interested in import shop, not particularly the debate about how to word posts.

Second, here’s my issue. It’s not that the import shop is stalked. It’s not even that the materials are rare. It’s just the fact that the rarity of us obtaining them are extremely rare. I’ve got days and days and days of playtime, and I, personally, have never come across a glittering cavern. I’ve seen one, but it wasn’t mine. Having said that, those days and days of playing have really been taken up, mostly, by grinding forging and mining. Not really the most fun and exciting, but, to be competitive as an artisan, I’ve got to be a grinding slave.

Am I asking for the ability to get cobalt all day long? No. Am I asking to, with effort and a bit of luck and some planning, be able to get it? Yeah. Why shouldn’t I be able to at least make an effort to go and get cobalt? At this point, for us players, it’s virtually non-existant. Charge higher prices for it? My standard price is 1500 riln per pound for cobalt, plus whatever I feel I can charge on top. Fortunately, I got cobalt before the import shop was changed to be manually stalked, and yes, I’ll admit, I’m going to hord it until the end of tomorrow. It’s the little advantage I have. I can’t, after all, own and opporate my own mine or opporate my own sails cart. If this is a falcity, please, let me know. Oh, and I’m not down with grinding up my combat skills to go and screw over some scarecrow farmers. That’s for one simple reason, artisan. I make things, not fight them.

I will admit that since I have no plan at this point, I have been. It’s stupid, I hate it, and I feel it’s the only real way I can make any sort of a difference in events as an artisan. Actually, involved at all. I’ll give a practical example. We went to see what was up with the elemancer thing. Found the geomancer’s corpse and, for IC reasons, did stuff with it. Everyone else was sent to fight the rock lizard, I was trying to get the corpse somewhere other than where it was. I tried to push it over the edge of the pile of rocks, I tried dragging it down. Meanwhile, someone with combat skills just comes and drags it off. I could have went with everyone else to fight the rock lizard but, logicly, it was best for an artisan who didn’t fight to be the guy who took the corpse. I got nothing from it. I just missed the event, yay! Do I want to be the star? Nah, not at all. Do I want to be involved or actually contribute? Sure. During that and many events, I am stuck because I do not have the skills do to anything.

I hear all the time, “go with the group, it will help you I sear,” but in reality, it really doesn’t. I still miss a majority of the time, mechanicly, but I’ll put that up to bad rolls. It’s more of the principal of the thing, honestly, why the heck would an unskilled warrior go with a group of elete fighters? He would just get in the way. I’ve been told before by pcs that, “you’re green, stay here and twiddle your thumbs in the infermory and wait,” and have heard from others, “I should have been around to deal with that.” Am I bitching? Probably a little. I feel that it’s not worth bringing up in a point by itself. I, after all, don’t play the game for the events. I play the game for what it is, a fun and interesting game. I’m ok with not being anybody in this world.

One point I do want to highlight, though, is the combat-heaviness. I’ll admit I have plenty of characters because it took me a long time to understand myself why I was playing. Everyone was being involved in everything – I wanted to be, too. It just so happens that what aspects I enjoy (artisan stuff) are not church/Templar/tse gaiyan stuff. Yes, I know, I’m slow – I should have learned that long ago! I digress, however.

Cobalt obviously can be mined in the lost lands, although extremely rare. All I’m asking is to make it a bit less rare. Buying cobalt from people is a decent option for one or two bars here and there. I’m not saying that I should be able to do everything myself, but, I should be able to get everything in my chosen field of study (blacksmithing). Plus, now that I have the skills I want, more or less, I’m not stuck sitting on my thumbs because, well, I have a crap load of everything I can get. I’d love to be able to plan out a trip to go and get 10-20 bars of cobalt. For selestium, in the intire time I’ve been playing (two years almost) I have never, ever, seen selestium into the land. Not even a bar.

With the introduction of ways to get higher-end materials, it might actually get an artisan able to construct expiditions like everyone else. I’ll pay you x while I go get y to protect me. I’l be looking for a group of guards for an artisan caravan this lightsday. I feel that it would only broaden the event possibilities. Another metal, while I’m thinking about it, is cinnabar. I’ve been able to mine cinnabar for ages, but, all the artisans I’ve ask never see it anymore. I can’t even find something that screws me from playing for an hour, and if there is one thing about Clok I’ve learned it’s there always is something out there waiting to get you,that has high reward.

I guess what I’m getting around to saying is both sides have a point. Something needs to be done, and we could sure as heck do something about things ourselves. It’s just the way it is, to me, feels neglected.

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Re: Import shop

Post by Acarin » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:28 am

The only celestium bars that I'm aware of that have been released were a couple during an impromptu event back when Acarin was still a monk and the war with Sceptus was just beginning (long long ago). He tried bidding against a wealthy merchant for the bars (to donate to the church) and was quickly out-rilned. Ah, memories...

Celestium is meant to be very very rare. I rather like that it's almost non-existent. Nethrium is not available at the moment, either. My point is, I don't think artisans should just be handed the stuff of legends just because they're artisans.

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Re: Import shop

Post by Jirato » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:33 am

If they want to pay more than they would for two large houses, I don't really think it's "just handing it to them". Though thinking back, I should have made it far more expensive. Maybe the price of five large houses. :-D
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Re: Import shop

Post by Acarin » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:15 am

Why stop there? Why not 10 large houses???

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Re: Import shop

Post by Fayne » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:00 am

Honestly, giving Artisans regular access to what are supposed to be fairly to extremely-uber rare materials would just kinda ruin the point to being Artisans entirely.

Seriously, think about it. In CLOK, we could have 5 Artisans who all like to craft swords and armor. They may all have different skill levels in the required skills, but once they reach a certain point, they're all pretty much equally as likely to produce masterful items as each other. In CLOK, quality doesn't really mean a damn thing anymore, since no one will hardly even look at your average items anymore. It's gotta be exquisite or masterful to wprth a damn, and as such, masterful is only slightly uncommon, while exquisite is, quite honestly, average.

Now, Artisans do have the advantage of being able to craft a few unique weapons and such that no one else can. Well, considering maybe two or three people who aren't Artisans actually forge anything, and you have 4 other Artisans anyway, that means those "special and unique" items are quite a bit less special and unique.

So, what makes one Artisan better than any other? Well, it certainly isn't the one player-designed line on the entire weapon, the crafting mark, if it even has it. It's materials. The "better" Artisans aren't necessarily more skilled than the others, they just have more materials, and better as well. If you open up rare materials to be less rare, well, then there goes the one thing making any one Artisan better than the rest.

Psrsonally I'd like to see crafting opened up to let players design weapons with their own descriptions and names. That's how ypu make the Artisans awesome. That's what makes everyone have the chance to better than their guildmates. If Artisans could describe their own items that they craft, then people would go to certain Artisans for items not because they have the right materials, or because they can make a certain quality easily, but because they like their writing style, or their attention to detail, or the clarity with which they describe their handiwork.

I know it'll likely never happen, at least not anytime soon, if ever, but I really think the crafting system would be so much better if it were opened up more in this way. It's the one reason I have a love/hate relationship with the crafting system. On the one hand, the combinations are plentiful, especially in the jewelrycrafting, and allow a lot of freedom in customization. But on the other hand, every bronze sword you make is just another plain old bronze sword and nothing more. I can honestly say that if custom descriptions became a thing (and maybe a tailoring ability, but one step at a time), I would most certainly regain my passion for CLOK, and I'd probably never play any of my characters except my Artisan ever again.

Back to the topic, though, I don't think rare materials should become a regular thing in the imports shop, especially not sunsteel or celestium. Perhaps make cobalt and bloodglass available once or twice a year in small quantities, and then every so often have an event that yields cobalt and/or bloodglass as a reward. I've never seen celestium or sunsteel in my entire two-and-a-half years of playing, or nethrium for that matter, but I kinda like it that way. For the characters who own items made of any of those materials, it makes them that much more special and invaluable, and to your average player it makes them legendary and awe-inspiring. Making them more available would be detrimental to that effect, though maybe we do need a really small influx of one or two of those three rare materials in order to give one or two people an item or two made from the stuff, so that newer players can actually see it for the first time ever. The few characters that I know of with any items made from any of the three rarest materials aren't frequently around, and at least one of them is highly inaccessible to most characters.
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Re: Import shop

Post by preiman » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:34 am

so addressing a few earlier things in this very old thread, I am kind of happy to say that the exquisite becoming the average is a thing of the past, I do hope that continues, though that will always be the market, more folk crafting, more competition, quality goes up and prices go down.

I mostly popped in to talk about the import shop, I know it is meant to be a manual restock, but is it possible to look at how long it's been and perhaps get a few of the more common things in at least? It seems like it's been quite some time since that's happened. if it's not been and it's just my perceptions then would it be possible to have a little sign, something that says "our last shipment was on (insert date here)" or something like that, so we can see the work that's being put in?
another thing that might help it, perhaps players, could sell some things to that shop, that then go into stock, for better prices than the market will offer, but with the limit that the market will only accept so much of something at a time?
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